Deb Law  0:03  
Good morning, and welcome to this morning's edition of Lambda Reports, radio program brought to you by and for the lesbian and gay community. This morning I am meeting and talking with Joyce Treblicot, who is a lesbian feminist activist and writer, Coordinator of Women's Studies at Washington University where she is also an associate professor of philosophy. Her current project is a book called lesbian feminist theory, or a book about lesbian feminist theory, excuse me called In Process: Radical Lesbian Essays that will be forthcoming. I'm here to this morning to discuss with Joyce, the most recent march for women's lives, dealing with the issues of abortion and choice and the current debate in the Supreme Court about the issue or the Missouri law, which will potentially have an effect on Roe versus Wade, or the ability and accessibility of abortion for women in the United States. Joyce, both of us were in attendance in Washington and welcome this (thanks) to do with you. One of the things certainly that I noticed was more of a presence, a lesbian presence at the March on Washington than I have seen at other activities. And as I sit here, I was wearing my another lesbian for choice button that Joyce made. And I was wondering if you could comment on that. What did you see? And what did you

Joyce Treblicot  1:24  
Yes, it was exciting, certainly that there was a large and visible number of lesbians at the March anticipating that and feeling how important it is for us to be visible as lesbians in the context of this struggle. I had a lot of buttons made ahead of time, that say another lesbian for choice, and took them there and had a great time selling buttons, the proceeds go to NARAL, and National Abortion Rights Action League, which is one of the leaders in this struggle. And so I had my buttons and with this sign explaining them, and I was going around saying things like get your lesbian visibility here. I felt like I was talking hot dogs in a ballpark but for a far better purpose, and had a wonderful excuse to go talk to anybody who looked like a dyke, of course, they wanted to buy a button. So it was fun. And I sold a lot of buttons. And I did make money for near out. And I think that that and other ways that we can make a lesbian presence felt in this struggle are important and will be increasingly important. For example, I understand that there is going to be a decision day rally here in St. Louis. And might as well mention that right now, in Steinberg Rink Forest Park. We don't yet know what day the decision will come down from the Supreme Court. But whatever day it is, supporters of choice will gather together here in St. Louis in Steinberg Rink that evening, to receive that decision and to respond to it. And there again, I hope that there will be an important presence of St. Louis lesbians visible by buttons that say another lesbian for choice, and by banners that say things like pro women, hence pro choice, St. Louis lesbians for choice and so on.

Deb Law  3:22  
While I certainly saw, we have just made mention of the presence nationally, were you involved in activities leading up to the March? And was there a strong lesbian presence?

Joyce Treblicot  3:34  
Well, certainly in activities here in St. Louis, there was the march that was held on the Saturday that Operation Rescue came to St. Louis prior to the March. That was the first time that we had here at any rate, lesbian presence visibly. And we had a number of signs that said another lesbian for choice at that March. And that was an important occasion and then again, after the March at the rally at the vigil, rather that was held the night before. The arguments were presented to the court just a couple of weeks ago was another event that was important and and it [wasn't having] a lesbian presence there.

Deb Law  4:23  
Why is this issue important to you?

Joyce Treblicot  4:28  
It's important to me because I care about women. I think fundamentally, lesbianism is women loving, right. And this issue is fundamental to the well being of women in this country, that women should be able to have control over when and whether to have children is fundamental to them, and to us being able to control our own lives. So it seems to me that anyone who cares about women has to care about women's right to choose.   So that pro choice is symbolic of that whole struggle, which has been the center of my life for many years. Now. Also, of course, it seems to me it's important to realize that lesbians need abortions too sometimes we are subjected to rape, we're not immune from that perhaps we're not as subjected to date rape or acquaintance rape as women who spend time or more time with men, but lesbians are raped as well as, as other women. In heterosexual settings, lesbians often get pregnant, there are a lot of married lesbians, and sometimes they get pregnant in need abortions. There are lesbians who are prostitutes, heterosexual prostitutes who need abortions. In lesbian settings, lesbians who decide to get pregnant because they want to have children sometimes nevertheless, find it necessary to have an abortion so that not only do I care about pro choice for women generally and as a symbolic of women's liberation, but also for my lesbian sisters who may find themselves pregnant and need an abortion. And one other thing I need to mention is that in 1951, when I was 17, and a senior in high school in Oakland, California, I had an illegal abortion. We had to go to Portland, Oregon in the middle of the night and a rainy, dark Saturday night is really almost a back alley, I remember going up those dark steps to this little office way up when on a street where everything was closed, there was nothing there. And it was very scary, and very dangerous and very traumatizing. And that was certainly an important event in my young life, and one that I want other women not to have to go through so that there was a personal history that is relevant to my commitment to abortion rights to thank you.

Deb Law  7:30  
I have long been active around this issue, working in abortion clinics dealing with women's health education. And in the early 70s. There were many lesbians who felt very strongly that in fact, we should not be wasting our time in the area of reproductive rights. I think you have addressed that issue very well. I was also wondering from another context of what positive things do you think a lesbian sensibility brings to this movement? And how do you think our presence affects this movement?

Joyce Treblicot  8:08  
That's important, isn't it? I think that we are communicating to other women in the movement, that the issue is a broader one than just abortion rights, I think that's tremendously important that we are connecting with women who are focusing on abortion and who are seeing through our visible out presents that the scope of women's liberation and seeing all of the kinds of things that we must struggle for. And I expect that when the focus of public policy turns to other sorts of issues, heterosexual women, and I'm thinking particularly vicious, more directly affecting lesbians, that heterosexual women will then come and be in coalition with us, just as we are in coalition with them over this issue. Now, so that part of what we're doing is making clear the breadth of the issue we're also of, as always, lending a lot of energy and pizzazz to it, it seems to me that lesbians have great style. Lesbians are in the forefront of all aspects of the women's movement, as you know, often in the leadership, and when we can do that out without having to hide who we are. We are we feel better about who we are and can express that that kind of freestyle it's typical of dikes are better and that that gives energy I think, to the whole movement to everybody.

Deb Law  9:40  
One of the other things that I had wanted to address and then I sort of saw some in some of the publicity that came out after Washington. While there was great mention of the fact that there were lesbians involved and a banner that said dykes for choice. I saw it in several on news articles, on the day after, I did see some radical baiting, a sense that this is a middle class movement, and we've got, you know, middle class whites out here marching in the nuclear family. And I also think one of the issues that we address too is, is that width and bredth, and also forcing people to look at a different definition of family, you know, who is our family and who is our community?

Joyce Treblicot  10:28  
  I'm inclined, excuse me, I'm inclined to want not even to use the word family. Frankly, though, I think that you're right to say it, in fact, what's happening, people are having to think of families, including lesbian couples, for example, single mothers, of course, and other kinds of groupings, communities of women living together as family, I my own sense is that the patriarchal family has been so harmful to women that even the concept is probably not salvageable. I'd just rather talk about groups or households or make up a word. But I think that in this context that you refer to, women are, who are not familiar with lesbian culture are getting a chance to see it, to see how much fun lesbians have lesbians, usually, in situations like political actions, have a great spirit, a great sense of connection and love for one another and know how to express that and to feel good about themselves and one another. And I think that that is inspiring to many other women who aren't lesbians and gives them a sense of the possibilities of womanhood. And I think that's tremendously important. When you're always worrying about what men think about you, you have limitations that lesbians tend to get free. of on some occasions, and I'd like I like that to be expressed in the context of these kinds of politics. It's

Deb Law  12:03  
very exciting. I also think it's indicative of maturation of our movement. And in that maturation and expression of being comfortable with who we are, it is setting a general example. Because as women we have so very few positive role models, where women feel comfortable with who we are. And what we do. Now,

Joyce Treblicot  12:20  
one of the great positive role models that's been very visible in this context is of course, Molly Yard. I adore Molly Yard, as she has been presented on national media and so on with her appearance and her voice and her strength and her age. I think she's a great example for all of us.

Deb Law  12:40  
She's super, what do you think if in fact, the Supreme Court does reverse the Roe vs. Wade decision, the possible repercussions for us as lesbians might be?

Joyce Treblicot  12:56  
Well, I hate to even kind of give me pause, you say anything, anything as strong as reversing it, but clearly, that's a blow to, to privacy rights, to our the scope within which we could move as women. And it has implications for all kinds of other, possibly other other possible repressive legal decisions and policy decisions and institutional practices that would limit our lives. I think, though, that the main implication that and reversal has for me and would have for me and would have for a lot of women who are lesbians who are fine this issue is that would immediately motivate us to organize, [your essay] to really then begin to think about how are we going to work around this issue now. On the state levels? Probably. Again, we don't I don't know what the decision is likely to be. But it looks as though we will have lots of work to do in the various states in Missouri will be one that that clearly that will have repressive laws. So I anticipate in the worst kinds of cases. Lots of meetings in Jefferson City.

Deb Law  14:25  
Well, we have run out of time this morning. Certainly this is a topic we could spend a considerable amount of time on. And I thank Joyce very much for joining me this morning. It has been quite an interesting experience for me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai