Charles Koehler 0:00 Hi, I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. When our founding fathers formed this nation over 200 years ago, they had not only the rich and powerful in mind, but also those persons who make up society at large. However, the legal system of today does not always recognize the rights of minorities nor the civil liberties of the oppressed. To talk about this and other issues concerning civil and legal rights of lesbians and gays, is St. Louis University law professor and cooperating attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union. Gene Schultz, good morning. Gene, and welcome to Lambda Reports, Gene Schultz 0:48 Good morning. Thank you for inviting me. Charles Koehler 0:51 Great. Can you tell us how the ACLU is involved in cases concerning the lesbian and gay community? Gene Schultz 0:59 Well, on a technical level, we get involved in different ways, either as the what in legalese is called the lawyer of record, where we would actually represent somebody. That was the case in the Perry Watkins case, Perry Watkins was refused the opportunity to continue his army career because of his sexual orientation. In that case, the ACLU was actually the attorney, or an ACLU attorney was his attorney. In other cases we may get involved in, in less, I shouldn't say less direct, but perhaps less substantial ways, the person may have his own attorney or her own attorney, and we come in as a friend of the court, generally at the appellate level. That was the case, for example, in Ben Shalom, which is the reservist case out of Wisconsin, where the reservist was not permitted to continue her career because she was a lesbian. And Charles Koehler 2:25 Okay. Can you talk about any local cases of note that the ACLU has been involved with? Gene Schultz 2:35 Yes, right now, there is a very unusual case going on here in St Louis. It involves a young man who was in the military program the ROTC program at Washington University, and as he progressed through school, he came to realize that that he was gay, and he discussed this with his commanding officer, and was promptly ejected from the the program, as if that wasn't bad enough, the the army is now trying to recover the money that it spent on this young man in terms of scholarships. It seems particularly strange that they would do this in a case where this young man was such a good student, such a strong participant in the ROTC program, that he was a kind of a national poster boy for the reserves, and was in a major publicity campaign. And initially, I guess, the army thought that perhaps he was play acting just to get out of his obligation. But I think even the army has now concluded that that was not the case. This is a this was a very honest, straightforward young man who apparently, in the Army's estimation, was just an outstanding officer candidate, and now they're seemingly going to drag him through the courts to get this scholarship money back. Quite a, quite an ad campaign. I would, I would thank for the reserves. I. Charles Koehler 4:59 Yeah, I understand that they're asking for fairly sizable amount of money back, something in the tune of $25,000 Gene Schultz 5:08 Yes, I don't know the exact amount, but of course, college these days is not cheap, Charles Koehler 5:14 especially at Washington University. Gene Schultz 5:15 Yes, and and the scholarships that they provide are generous. They provide not only tuition, but they may also provide some of the other expenses as well as a small amount of spending money. So they are valuable scholarships. Charles Koehler 5:33 So far, we've talked about three cases that the ACLU has been involved with, and they're all military related ones. Interestingly enough, one of our first guests on Lambda Reports was Sergeant Perry Watkins, who you referred to at first. Are there any other types of cases involving lesbians and gays that the ACLU is involved with? Gene Schultz 5:57 Well, of course, we will. We try to get involved in any kind of a case that, in that to our way of thinking, involves the Bill of Rights to the to the federal constitution or statutory rights that have been enacted For the benefit of individuals. I shouldn't say we try to get involved in each of those. Those are the kinds of cases we are interested in. Charles Koehler 6:27 So that's the main focus of the ACLU, and sort of in a nutshell, Gene Schultz 6:33 the enforcement and extension of the Bill of Rights that those first 10 amendments to the Constitution, which our founding fathers insisted on before they would ratify our Constitution, they were deemed that important. Charles Koehler 6:50 And of course, this year, we're celebrating the 200th anniversary of the Gene Schultz 6:54 absence (?) yes of the cons of the Constitution itself. Yes, Charles Koehler 7:01 you were going to mention about some other cases. Yes, other types of cases. Gene Schultz 7:07 Well, I suppose A good example is actually sort of of historical interest at this point, and that is that one of the early gay rights cases in which the ACLU participated successfully was here in Missouri about 15 years ago. Now, there was an organization at the University of Missouri called, I believe at that time, Gay Liberation, or something close to that, Charles Koehler 7:42 okay, that would be in Columbia or Gene Schultz 7:44 in Columbia, and this organization wanted to have the same privileges as other student organizations in terms of access to facilities and so forth and so on. And the university refused. And a local ACLU attorney took the case for free, as they always do, and after, I believe, seven years it took, that case was eventually won for the Gay Lib organization. Of course, all of the people who were members by that time had long graduated, but it was an important case establishing that there are free speech aspects and right of association aspects involved in one's sexual orientation and the way that one might go about looking after your own interests in that regard. I mean, this organization basically was, was a support organization, and and, and the Eighth Circuit decided that Mizzou had to treat this organization as other student organizations, because It would be unfair not to and would violate various constitutional rights, particularly first amendment rights, speech and association. Charles Koehler 9:28 Great. Well, we hear about some important cases that involve lesbians and gays and discover that the ACLU is not involved in defending them. What sort of criteria are used to determine when the ACLU will become involved in a case. Gene Schultz 9:46 Well, the first major criterion is, does this case appear to involve the Bill of Rights? The. There are, of course, many, many deserving cases in this world where injustice is being done, but it doesn't involve the Bill of Rights. We don't get involved in cases that don't involve the Bill of Rights or something very close to it, some statutory equivalent. That's our thing. Privacy, of course, I mentioned the First Amendment with free speech, freedom of religion, free press, search and seizure issues, arrest issues, a right to counsel issues, a lot of them involving criminal defendants. And of course, privacy and equal protection and due process, all of those kinds of things and others are are part of the Bill of Rights, and, and, and that's our thing. We're not saying that other causes aren't just as important, but we've come together to protect the Bill of Rights. Now sometimes we don't, even if there is a Bill of Rights issue, we may not have the resources to undertake the case, and if we can't find those resources, we probably will not take the case, because you can't get involved and then not carry through. Charles Koehler 11:21 By resources. We're talking about funding and also manpower, right? Gene Schultz 11:25 Okay, that sort of thing. Yes, exactly. And occasionally, much to our frustration, a problem may involve what appears to us to be Bill of Rights issues on both sides of the case. Charles Koehler 11:43 Can you give us an example of one of those? Gene Schultz 11:45 Well, I can. Recently, there has been a great deal of litigation and even legislation involving the District of Columbia. The District of Columbia passed a gay rights ordinance, and this came into a conflict with the policies at Georgetown University, a Catholic University and the University argued that it was religious freedom. Of course, we are very much in favor of religious freedom. And so here was a here, this is an example of a situation where ACLUers might disagree as to what side of the case you should be on. Charles Koehler 12:42 I see So in other words, they're in essence deadlocked on Gene Schultz 12:48 that can happen yes or a local chapter may disagree with the with the National's position. And when these things happen, we sometimes are unable to participate. Charles Koehler 13:01 You mentioned that ACLU is that some cases are limited due to lack of manpower and also funding. How is the ACLU funded? Gene Schultz 13:12 Well, we're a membership organization, and members pay dues. Like a lot of organizations, we have fundraisers, auctions, dinners, various kinds of things to raise money. We occasionally apply for grants. About the only source of income we would never consider is government money, Charles Koehler 13:41 Because that that could pretend potentially lead to conflict of interest? Gene Schultz 13:45 Yes. Charles Koehler 13:46 I see. Any any final words that of advice that you have for our listeners in 30 seconds? Gene Schultz 13:55 Well, I certainly think that the ACLU is one of the leading organizations in the area of gay and lesbian rights. That's not to put down others, but I think the ACLU track record means they deserve support. Charles Koehler 14:12 Great. Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for today. I'd like to thank our guest ACLU cooperating attorney Gene Schultz for being with us. If our listeners would like to know how they can support the ACLU, or want additional information, they can call weekdays at 361 2111, that's 361-2111. That's all for today. This has been Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports. Tune us in again next week, same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai