Charles Koehler 0:01 I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. It's been said that some of the most rewarding times and some of the most frustrating times are those moments spent with another person in a relationship with our three guests, today, we'll be exploring some of the trials and tribulations and joys that go into dating in the lesbian and gay community. We welcome to lambda reports, Mark Kalk, Nancy Moldenhauer and Mark Lammert, welcome. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself? Nancy, Nancy Moldenhauer 0:46 I'm a geriatric social worker by trade, and I'm Chairperson of the Board for Challenge Metro, which operates the Gay and Lesbian Hotline. And also I'm learning to date at the age of 35 Charles Koehler 0:58 Great. Well, maybe we can all learn a little bit more about it through this process. Next. Mark Lammert. Mark Lammert 1:04 Yeah, Charles, I'm in business life. I'm a CPA and head of operations for a small graphic design company here in St. Louis. I'm also involved with the Challenge Metro Hotline as a volunteer and also treasurer the Gateway Men's Chorus, the gay chorus here in St Louis. Charles Koehler 1:22 Great. and Mark. Mark Lammert, I'm sorry. Mark Kalk, Mark Kalk 1:26 That's going to be confusing through the whole show, Charles Koehler 1:28 Right. Mark and Mark. Mark Kalk 1:30 Charles, I'm a member and hotline volunteer for the Challenge Metro Gay Hotline, as well as a member of the Board of Directors with Nancy as a past Board of Directors member of St Louis Effort for AIDS and Vice President of Education of the same organization in regular life, I am a chemist, a teacher, and a student, and five year partner of Mark Lammert. Charles Koehler 1:55 Oh, so we have a couple in our in our studio right here. Mark Kalk 2:00 Well, hopefully there will be no fistfights. Charles Koehler 2:03 Well, we'll find out. First of all, let's, let's define our terms just, just, what do we mean by the word dating? Nancy Moldenhauer 2:13 I think dating is a process by which you get to know a person, and I think if people date, they should have a good reason for getting to know each other better to begin with. I think also, while you're dating somebody, you have your list of what you're looking for in a relationship and a potential partner, and you're sort of doing a measuring up process, seeing if they're going to fit what your list of expectations are. And finally, I really think it's a trial run for marriage or for making a commitment to somebody. Charles Koehler 2:45 Okay, Mark. Mark, Mark Lammert 2:49 Boy, it's been so long, five years, it's hard to remember what it was like. It's really a the dating phase is really a chance to get to know somebody, to see if there is a chance to that you want to spend time together, to make a long term commitment. And I remember it's, it's also kind of trying time to go through too, because you want things to happen fast, and they always don't happen quite as fast as you'd like them to. Charles Koehler 3:16 Well, let's, let's take a look at how dating might differ or be similar in the lesbian and gay communities. Let's take a look at the the gay community. How does it How does it differ? Mark, Mark Kalk 3:32 Well, the first word that comes to mind is that dating in the gay world is more covert. But that word sort of bothers me because it sounds kind of sleazy. And I don't mean it to be that, I just mean that it's more hidden. It's a little bit more uncertain as to where to go, how to meet people, whether or not they're going to receive you well if you approach them, I think it makes it a little bit more difficult to do dating in the gay world. Charles Koehler 4:01 Among straights, is what you're saying. Are among gays themselves too. Mark Kalk 4:05 Oh, I think both. I think it's, it's with with non gay people, you meet each other in just the normal workday environment, but with gay people, you have to have sort of specialized circumstances, either friends or a bar or something like that. It's a little harder to find potential partners Charles Koehler 4:26 Any other characteristics, Nancy Moldenhauer 4:27 I think, in the lesbian community, especially, it's really hard to know if you're dating somebody to have relationship happen or if a friendship is developing. So sort of it's hard to know at times. I think for lesbians, there's less cards and flowers than there is in the gay male community. So sometimes it can be difficult to make a decision if you're really being courted by somebody, or if it's a, you know, a friendship that's developing, Charles Koehler 4:56 How do you go about how do you go about finding out what, what stage you're at, or … Nancy Moldenhauer 5:02 I'm going to make a real plug for open, honest communication and being upfront with people if you're interested in dating them, if that's what's going on, then call it a date. Charles Koehler 5:13 Okay? And the same applies, of course, to the gay population too. Mark Lammert 5:20 Yeah, I would think so, Charles, I think there's another big difference, which between, say, the straight and gay community when it comes to dating, and that's when you're in the straight community, you've got your parents and other friends out there looking for potential partners for you, but many of us, you might not be out to our parents, and so you lose that whole network of your mother and father and your aunts and uncles trying to find that right person for you. So I think that's another big difference. You don't have that networking that you do in the straight community. Charles Koehler 5:48 I see, although I have heard of some cases where mothers have found potential mates for their sons who are also male. So what would you say are some of the biggest mistakes that people seem to make when they choose someone to date. Nancy Moldenhauer 6:07 I think one of the biggest mistakes is not knowing what you're looking for in a potential lover partner to begin with, not knowing a lot about yourself, what your likes and dislikes are, and then not knowing what type of a person to look for after that. I think we often can go blindly into dating relationships and then committed relationships, without really doing the evaluation of what kind of a person is going to be good for me, and am I going to be good potentially for the person I'm seeing, also. I think, too, that sometimes we may use bars as potential places of meeting people, and this isn't always the best place to find a potential partner. So as Mark was commenting later, a lot of the natural networks that straight people have just aren't available for us also, too. I think we can make a mistake of using sex as the entry point into our relationships. Instead of getting to know the person first as a friend, we sort of jump into the intimate part of a relationship before we really know what that person is all about. Charles Koehler 7:21 You were talking about some of the problems in the whole dating process, one of which is you mentioned that bars are not necessarily the best place to go about meeting other potential partners, and also that you need to go about defining what's important to yourself. How, first of all, how do you go about defining what's important to yourself? And then, second of all, once you define that, what recommended areas or places would you might be able to find? Nancy Moldenhauer 7:52 Okay, I think the first part is really doing a personal inventory on yourself, and Charles Koehler 7:59 What does that mean? Nancy Moldenhauer 7:59 Writing down, what do you like? What do you dislike? What kind of a person are you? How do you like to spend your free time? Is it going to be important for you to share your hobbies with your potential partner? Is it important if the person's out to their parents and to their friends? You know, if you need a closeted relationship because of your business, is that going to bother your potential partner? I think we need to do an inventory like that. You know, our likes, dislikes, things we expect out of a person that we're going to be committed to. The second part of the question, you know, where do we go about looking for people? I think that gay organizations are one way to go about doing that. There are certainly groups around religious interests, if that be Dignity or Lutherans concerned or sometimes you can become involved in political groups. It may be a good way to meet people. I think sometimes just registering for classes and things that you're interested in may lead you to someone who has similar interests. All the people that sign up for classes aren't straight. There are gays and lesbians in those classes also, also to potentially being introduced to people through your friends. I think that's a good way to find somebody Charles Koehler 9:17 The old networking process. Any additions to either of those points. Mark Kalk 9:22 I just wanted to echo something that Nancy was saying, and that's that you you have to know what to expect when you're getting into a relationship. You you need to know what sort of accommodations you can expect to be making, and that includes little things like, how many socks are you gonna have to pick up? Who does the dishes? Where's the toothpaste tube get squeezed? And those little sorts of things can be aggravating, and it's it's good to know even some of those little annoying kind of things, and dating shows those to you before you move in together. Charles Koehler 9:57 I see, well, while. While we're talking about idiosyncrasies of people, lesbians and gays don't have many role models when it comes to the whole dating process. For instance, Emily Post just hasn't written her Handbook for Homosexuals yet, and until she comes out with one. What would you say are some of the basic ground rules for dating etiquette. Nancy Moldenhauer 10:24 I think this is interesting because Tina Tesina has come out with a book that's called Gay Relationships for Men and Women: How To Find Them, How To Improve Them, and How To Make Them Last. So finally, we do have some advice that's in black and white, and we can purchase at a bookstore. Great. I think some of the basic things, as I mentioned before, be sure the person knows it's a date, you know, let them know that I'm interested in dating you. I have tickets for such and such. I'd like to take you to this event. Be sure they know what they're getting into, as I mentioned before, be sure that you have a reason for getting to know that person better. You know, if they're coming up as Loser on your list, then why would you even consider starting a dating relationship with somebody if it looks like it isn't going to go somewhere? I think too, if you're talking about a first date. Plan it around an activity that they're interested in. If you know they're interested in the theater or exhibits or whatever, take them someplace that they're going to enjoy. Going to another thing too. I think if you have an event where there are going to be more people around that can help make your first date a little bit easier. Also, if there's a dance the community is giving, or if your friends are having to get together, having other people around can take the pressure off a little bit. So these are just some guidelines, but I'd say Be specific. Don't be vague when you're wanting to date somebody. Charles Koehler 11:59 Okay, any other suggestions? Mark Lammert 12:02 I'm just thinking, Charles, it's some of the, I guess, the unknowns that you run into when you're dating with, when you're a gay or lesbian is, you know, who picks up the tab or or who opens the door for you know, for whom you know things that you don't necessarily run into in the straight community. There's role models, or there's rules that the follow and etiquette to follow for the straight community. But that's also a plus, because then you can create the situation that best fits both your needs and, you know, the quality of the can come through. You know, between both people, you don't have to fit a certain role in your date. Mark Kalk 12:41 That's why we need shows like this. Charles Koehler 12:43 Right. Well, we only have a short amount of time left, but a couple of closing questions, just real quickly, is, is there one special Mr. or Ms? Right? out there for our listeners? Nancy, Nancy Moldenhauer 12:56 There is no Mr. / Ms, right. There's only a Mr. / Ms. maybe. Charles Koehler 13:02 Maybe. Nancy Moldenhauer 13:02 This is something to keep in mind. I think that there are a lot of someone's out there that we could potentially develop a romantic relationship with, but we may not allow ourselves to be open to that person or to that experience. Charles Koehler 13:18 See, and how do we go about opening ourselves to that that experience? Nancy Moldenhauer 13:24 I think that one thing is to be real comfortable and secure with yourself first of all. And if you don't have that basic down that you don't know what you're about and what you want, then that's potentially going to build disaster in a dating situation. Charles Koehler 13:42 30 seconds left, what closing advice would you give to our listeners? Mark. Mark Kalk 13:50 I would say to put less emphasis on finding a life mate and enjoy the dating. Being a couple is not necessarily the end all to end all, and it may not be for everyone. Charles Koehler 14:02 Mark. Mark Lammert 14:02 I'd also say that not to have your expectations up too high on a date, that not to try to, you know, to have everything met, to be more open and have a wider window, I guess, with your date. Charles Koehler 14:08 Nancy. Mark Lammert 14:12 Don't rush, take your time and don't take rejection personally. Nancy Moldenhauer 14:23 Great. That's all the time we have for today. I'd like to thank our guest Mark Kalk, Nancy Moldenhauer, and Mark Lammert. All three are members of Challenge Metro, and I understand that Challenge Metro is currently looking for volunteers to help out in the Lesbian and Gay Hotline, work with their Speakers Bureau and in many other related activities. We encourage our listeners to call The Lesbian and Gay Hotline at 367-0084, that's 367-0084 for additional information. Also books on lesbian and gay relationships and couples are available at Left Bank Books at 367-6731, and through Our World Too at 533-5322. Until next time, this is Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports. Our theme music is by Jerry Rabushka. Tune us in next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai