Charles Koehler  0:00  
Hi, I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. It's been said that some of the most rewarding times and some of the most frustrating times are those moments spent with another person in a relationship. With our three guests, Today, we'll be exploring some of the trials and tribulations and joys that go into becoming a lesbian or gay couple. We welcome to Lambda Reports Mark Kalk, Nancy Moldenhauer, and Mark Lammert. Welcome. Why don't you tell us a little about yourselves? Nancy.

Nancy Moldenhauer  0:49  
I'm a geriatric social worker, and I'm Chairperson of the Board for Challenge Metro, which operates the Gay and Lesbian Hotline, and I have had three failed long term relationships.

Charles Koehler  1:00  
Okay? Well, we'll have some insight into the whole relationship situation. Mark. Mark Lammert.

Mark Lammert  1:10  
I'm a CPA and a head of finance for a small graphic design and business communications company here in St. Louis. I'm also a Hotline volunteer for Challenge Metro, and also treasurer of the Gateway Men's Chorus, the gay chorus here in St. Louis.

Charles Koehler  1:23  
Great Mark Marco,

Mark Kalk  1:26  
Yes,Charles, I'm a Board of Directors member and Hotline volunteer with Challenge Metro, and a past Board of Directors member of St. Louis Effort for AIDS, and even the Vice President of Education for Effort for AIDS. Right now in the real world, I'm a chemist, teacher and student and five year partner of Mark Lambert,

Charles Koehler  1:46  
Hmm, okay. Well, let's take a look at at lesbian and gay couples. They why is it that they seem to be invisible? We we hear about them, but we seldom see them in everyday life.

Mark Kalk  2:00  
Well, I think I can answer that, Charles, I thought of four or five things, because that's something that sort of bothers me too, and it's something I think it's seen a lot. I don't know that it's seen any more in the gay world than in the non-gay world, but I suspect that it is. A lot of these things are kind of exaggerated in the gay world because there are so many pressures on gay people that I think you don't find in the non-gay world. Of the few things I thought of one is that, like any relationship, it takes time and energy, and you may not have any energy or time left over for organizations or friends that you had before the relationship. Secondly, you, at least early on, like to spend most of your time together, and that means meshing together schedules and doing things that each other likes, which may not include things you did as a single person. Maybe it does, but sometimes it doesn't, and you end up sort of dropping some of the things you did before you were in the relationship. Thirdly, and I think this one is very important, but maybe overlooked is that couples have a second coming out process to go through.

Charles Koehler  3:15  
What do you mean by that? 

Mark Kalk  3:16  
Well, as individuals, we go through a coming out process where we tell those that are important to us or that we see on a regular basis that we're gay. Many of them will accept us, and many won't, and of the ones that accept us, some of them will sort of accept you on a surface level. They'll say, Well, okay, that's fine. It doesn't bother me. I can live with that. But when you're a couple, being gay is much more obvious. It's something they then really have to deal with, because you're going to be there as a couple, you'll be expected to come to family gatherings as a couple, and it's something that is then right out on the table, and they have to deal with it at a little deeper level, I think. So you have a coming out process to go through again, and sometimes that takes up more energy than then you have available, and you tend to pull back together, and you don't reach out and do other things that maybe you did as a single person. And one other thing would be a fear of losing your partner. I think that's probably true in all couples. You sort of hold on to each other, especially early on, when sex looms is the big attraction.

Nancy Moldenhauer  4:25  
One thing I can think that doesn't exist in the gay and lesbian community, or many of the passage rituals that a heterosexual couple goes through, engagement, wedding, birth announcements, things that announce publicly to society that you are indeed a couple, and you want to be recognized as a couple. 

Mark Kalk  4:46  
Just one quick thing more I wanted to add was that there is sometimes a lack of acceptance in the gay community itself. Single people or people that had a relationship that didn't work out think you've got the best of the world because you're in a relationship, and they forget that you still come in as an individual with your own issues. You have couple issues, and putting a relationship on a pedestal is distances you from the rest of the community.

Charles Koehler  5:13  
Mark and Mark have been a couple for over five years now. Can you two tell us how you went about meeting Mark.

Mark Lammert  5:22  
Only five years. It seems much longer than it sometimes. Charles, just kidding, just 

Charles Koehler  5:27  
Okay.

Mark Lammert  5:30  
We actually met through Dignity, through the gay Catholic organization here in St. Louis, they have a social hour every Sunday evening after the religious service, and actually another couple friend of ours, who we both knew, introduced us. And so that was our first meeting, and we met a couple times there, and in the real first date, I guess you could say was, we were both invited to a Labor Day party, swimming party, and I had other plans, but I was interested Mark, so I changed my plans and became the pursuer and made sure I was at that party. And that's the first time I really had a chance to spend time together and get to know each other. And from there, things just kind of blossomed.

Charles Koehler  6:15  
Is that your recollection also.

Mark Kalk  6:17  
I sort of blacked out through most of it and woke up in a relationship, but, but it sounds accurate. Yeah, 

Charles Koehler  6:26  
Okay, okay. Well, what kind of compromises and changes have you had to make in in your relationships to get it to work for you?

Mark Lammert  6:35  
Boy, there's a there are. There are compromises. Uh, many, it seems sometimes, but, but, but they're, they're always worth it. But the things that come to mind for me just having a dog in the house. When I, when I started going out with Mark, one of the things that came along with him was, was his dog, Abby. And at home we are our dog stayed outside, but his was a house dog. So once we start, start really going together, Abby was another part of the relationship. So things like that.

Mark Kalk  7:07  
She accepted you right away.

Charles Koehler  7:12  
You're talking about Abby, right? Okay,

Mark Lammert  7:14  
I just, I also think just the other things that changes and compromises you make, is the day to day, living together, the habits that that you have, the type of schedule you keep, you know you might be a night person versus a morning person. You know that your partner is and to trying to learn to mesh together and and find where your commonalities are and what your shared values are, and, and, and you find that you end up giving up some of the things you did in the past, whether it's hobbies or maybe friends that you spend less time with now. So there are a lot of changes that take place.

Charles Koehler  7:48  
Nancy, what's been your experience in the relationships that you've been in?

Nancy Moldenhauer  7:54  
I found myself connected with people that weren't willing to make compromises. So I think in many cases, that's why the relationships didn't work for me. I was the person that was giving in all the time, and after a while, that does take its   toll. So I've learned from that experience.

Charles Koehler  8:10  
So it seems that all of you agree that it compromises is an important component of maintaining a healthy coupled relationship,

Mark Lammert  8:21  
I'd say,

Charles Koehler  8:24  
What can a person realistically expect out of a lesbian or gay relationship? The good and the bad, Nancy?

Nancy Moldenhauer  8:33  
I think that we shouldn't shortchange ourselves. So ourselves short I think we can expect as much in a relationship as straight couples can expect. And whatever you want, I think you can have that in your relationship if you're willing to create the type of relationship that you want to have. 

Charles Koehler  8:52  
What sort of things are we talking about?

Nancy Moldenhauer  8:54  
Well, I think lots of times the gay and lesbian community thinks, oh, couples can stay together, and they don't stay together. So we end up having sixth month, one month, two year relationships that end up, you know, breaking up. I know of people that have had, you know, a relationship longer than Mark and Marks, they've been together for five years, but there are people in our community, they've been together 15, 16, 30 years. And if that's something that we want, we can certainly have it.

Charles Koehler  9:22  
Any other insights? 

Mark Kalk  9:24  
Well, I thought I'd approach that issue, Charles by saying that it's sort of the two different sides of the same coin. What I mean is that the good and the bad of a gay relationship relates to the lack of social acceptance and lack of legal acceptance. It's good in the sense that it gives us the power to define our relationships the way we want them to be, and it causes each partner to think about what they want in the relationship, rather than making some large assumptions that I think get made when you're married in a traditional sense. And that gives you, I think, a little more. Confidence in the relationship. The flip side, or the bad side of it, is that we don't have the same rights that legally married couples do, and we feel like second class citizens because of that. 

Charles Koehler  10:13  
Can you give us some examples of some of the rights that lesbian or gay couples don't have that married non-gay couples automatically have as part of the marriage ceremony,

Mark Kalk  10:23  
almost any kind of ownership issues are not automatically assumed when you declare yourself as a gay couple. So you have to prepare your own legal documents for that sort of thing, your own wills, your own powers of attorney, type of documents. You can't file joint income tax statements if you should wish to. You can't easily adopt children if you should want to, even if you come into the relationship with a child, it can be can cause problems. So a lot of those kind of things are not assumed for a gay relationship. 

Charles Koehler  10:55  
Okay, you mentioned about some legal documents, I believe, wills and powers of attorney, etc. Can you? Can you spend just a minute or so talking about them?

Mark Kalk  11:05  
Yeah, actually, all I would say is that a will is like everyone has heard. It determines the status of your estate upon your death and where things are distributed. 

Charles Koehler  11:15  
Why are these documents, though, particularly important for lesbians or gays? 

Mark Kalk  11:20  
Becausevin a legally married, non-gay couple, those sort of conditions are assumed. And it's not necessary to develop a will, although you certainly can, it's not necessary to, and if you're in a gay relationship, none of that's assumed, and your goods, your assets, your estate, will be distributed as the state wishes, or as they or as or as their survivors wish, and you may not like the way they distribute it. 

Nancy Moldenhauer  11:48  
In most cases, it will go back to your blood relatives, is what happens. And there have been cases where couples have been thrown out of apartments, not allowed to continue living in a house that supposedly was joint owned, but there was no legal evidence of that. 

Mark Kalk  12:04  
Yeah, I would say real quickly that a will, a living will, and documentation of joint ownership, those are some important forms to have filled out through a lawyer.

Charles Koehler  12:15  
Okay? We've also heard a little bit about powers of attorney. 

Nancy Moldenhauer  12:18  
Be sure that that's a durable part of attorney, which means that if at any point your partner should become incompetent, then the other partner can act in your best stead, whether that be for decisions that need to be made for you, legally or medically.

Mark Kalk  12:34  
we are seeing a new definition of family too, and I think that I'm looking forward to the time when all relationships will be valued equally in our culture and in our legal system.

Charles Koehler  12:46  
Okay, well, we only have about one minute left. But Mark Lammert, what word of advice would you give to our listeners to help establish a relationship and keep it going?

Mark Lammert  12:58  
I guess really two main things. One is open and honest communication, which is an absolute must to have a relationship. And the second is the expectation about that you shouldn't expect your partner to make you happy, because they can't make you happy. You can only make yourself happy. You have to take responsibility for that they can enhance your happiness, and really, you know, share your joys and the things you go through, but you shouldn't expect another person to create happiness for you. You have to do it yourself. And they can. They can really be a big part of that, though. 

Charles Koehler  13:35  
Great, quick thoughts, Mark.

Mark Kalk  13:38  
Just simply be comfortable with each other. And I think if you can't be friends, it's going to be awfully hard to be lovers.

Charles Koehler  13:44  
Okay, Nancy 

Nancy Moldenhauer  13:46  
and I will ditto the open and honest communication, because if that isn't there, then there's nothing to build a relationship on.

Charles Koehler  13:53  
Thanks very much. That's all the time we have for today. I'd like to thank our guest, Mark Kalk, Nancy Modenhauer, and Mark Lammert. All three are members of Challenge Metro, and I understand that Challenge Metro is currently looking for our volunteers to help out with the Lesbian and Gay Hotline work and with their speakers bureau, and also with many other related activities. We encourage our listeners to call the Lesbian and Gay Hotline at 367-0084 that's 367-0084 for additional information. Also, books on lesbian and gay relationships and couples are available at Left Bank Books at 367-6731 or through Our World Too, at 533-5322. Until next time, this is Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai