John Hilgeman  0:02  
Good morning. This is John Hilgeman from Lambda Reports, a program by and for the lesbian and gay community in the St. Louis area. And our guest this week is Brad Wishon, who is the pastor of the Metropolitan Community Church of Greater St Louis. And we're going to talk today about homosexuality in Christian history, Brad, this is kind of a continuation of our topic of last week where we talked about homosexuality in the Scripture. I think we entitled that. Let's see, the Bible as our friend, because a lot of people don't realize that the Bible says a lot of positive things about gay relationships. What about Christian history? What is what's happened in Christian history? 

Brad Wishon  0:48  
We've been there all through Christian history. Contrary to what we might be led to believe, there is great bodies of evidence that show that homosexuality was considered absolutely normal for centuries during the earliest parts of Christian history. Under Roman law, homosexuality, our homosexual marriages were protected by the same law that protected heterosexual marriages. They were legal, absolutely public and legal Nero married two different men in public ceremonies, and so Christianity was born into a world where homosexuality was considered okay and normal. 

Christianity did not change that for the first 300 years of Christian history, the Christians were not the acceptable group. Then, when Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire with the conversion of Constantine, then Christianity still accepted homosexuality as absolutely normal. No laws were enacted. There were a few decrees on and off in different periods by different emperors who were homophobic themselves. But no church council has ever condemned it, and usually the persons who were persecuted and prosecuted under these laws tended to be bishops of the church. And so we've been prominent throughout 

I mentioned the last time we talked about saints Perpetua and Felicitous, and they are probably one of the one of the neatest stories is how that they cared for each other in prison. They'd been thrown in prison for their profession of Je, in Jesus Christ, and they were in prison together, and they cared for each other. They tended to each other. They were martyred together on March 7, 203 A.D. in Carthage. They died kissing each other, and they were lesbian lovers. There is no doubt about that. 

We're prominent throughout church history, after one of the first times that the church ever challenged the government was toward the end of the 4th Century, around 380 A.D. Theodosius was the emperor at that point, after after Constantine and Theodosius had imprisoned an athlete in Thessalonica, a gay athlete, because of his homosexuality, Theodosius came from Spain. In Spain, it was very unacceptable, and in those regions, very tribalistic culture. And so Theodosius imprisoned this athlete. Wouldn't let him perform in the games. The citizens, the Christians of Thessalonica, which is the same thing that the apostle Paul wrote two letters to the church at Thessalonica, the First and Second Thessalonians. So it's the same city. The city rioted. They rioted for days. The Roman army was called in. Over 7000 people were massacred. The Bishop Ambrose of Milan intervened and told Theodosius that until he did penance for what he had done, that he would not be able to come back into the church and receive Communion, and that he had to release this gay athlete. Now, an interesting thing is that bishop Ambrose did not particularly like homosexuality, but he didn't consider it sinful. He just it was distasteful, personally to him, but that's all. But he stood up for this gay athlete, and he told Theodosius that he would have to release him. Well, for months, it dragged out, and this was the first time the church had ever challenged civil government. And for months, finally, the Emperor stripped off his empirical robes, put on sackcloth and sprinkled ashes on himself and walked through the town, finally arriving at the doors of the church, and he was forgiven and allowed to receive the sacrament, and he released the gay athlete, but only after he did that was he considered restored. So not only has Christianity been accepting of homosexuality, it fought for the rights when there was oppression of those who were gay or lesbian.

 And that occurred at other points during Christian history, probably one of the worst times prior to the Lateran councils. The Lateran councils between 1123, and 1215, ad were what I label, in my own terminology, as war on minorities. And so. So when you get to that point, you've got a real struggle within the church that is pushing others away so. But prior to that, there were a few moments when in Christian history when homosexuality was in trouble, like under the Emperor Justinian. Justinian was not a moral reformer in any sense of the word. In fact, he was the first Christian Roman emperor that changed the laws surrounding divorce. It was illegal to get a divorce. From the time Christianity was a state religion until Justinian in the Fifth Century, I mean in the Sixth Century. And so Justinian was by no means a moral reformer, but he did promulgate laws, three different sets of them, that outlawed homosexuality. The interesting thing about it was that he used Christian terms and said that these it was a wicked sin and people needed to repent, but the only people who prosecuted under it were were church people. Were prominent church people. These were people who opposed him politically, and it was a way of wiping out his his rival faction, the Greens. In fact, his wife was very good at that; two different gay men, she tried to have prosecuted under these laws, one of them, when he made an unflattering remark about her, personally, she had him drugged from the church where he had taken refuge, stripped, beaten, tortured, and then castrated. And she was not a nice person. 

But other than that instance, and then again, in around 800 A.D., Charlemagne, who took credit for making Europe Christian, for some reason. I don't know why he took credit for that, but that was his, his ball of wax, so to speak. He he tried to get the monks to stop practicing homosexuality because they had taken vows of celibacy. Because prior to that, it was really hard thing to do. In fact, in many of the monastic rules, which is the book that governs each monastery or how this order will operate, it would, it would make comments like, if there are pretty young men in present that they should keep their face hidden until an appropriate time when they're no longer pretty, because of fears of what will happen, not because homosexuality was wrong, but because they had taken that as a celibacy, but but even all during that time, the clergy was not a celibate clergy, they married heterosexually and homosexually all the way up until 1123 AD, the first letter In Council, Forbid marriages of clergy. 

But so the clergy were completely accepting some of the greatest love poetry to come out of the early Middle Ages. 8600 to 1200 is, is homoerotic and beautiful. So the most beautiful love poetry. So all during the first 1000 years, the first millennium of Christian history, homosexuality was never condemned. It was considered okay. It was acceptable. It was acceptable for bishops, for priests, for for the common person, for nobility, for the aristocracy, it didn't matter. It was acceptable. In fact, the church married gay and lesbian people, when, at that time, heterosexual marriage was a civil ceremony. It had been, it always had been, a civil ceremony. And even today, we retain a portion of that, in that the Father gives away the bride. That comes from the time when fathers used to perform the ceremony. The father the bride officiated prior to 1215 A.D., that's the way it would. And the priest may or may not have been asked to ask some kind of blessing, but that would be all. But it was a civil ceremony, and it was a civil contract in nature, I try to get any of my couples, whether they're heterosexual or homosexual, when they're going through holy matrimony or holy union, to not use that part of the ceremony, because it comes from a time when, basically, the father sold his daughter to another man, and women were nothing but a possession, and that's what it's all about. And so I try to get them to stay away from that. I tell them that, now that you know this, do you really want this as part of your the idea of the two of you joining lives together, you really want to have this display so and and all during that first 1000 years, then Christianity embraced the minority.

 Even, even the first few 100 years prior to the becoming the state religion, women had a vast role in in the government of the church. Women consecrated communion. Women were part and parcel. After it became the challenge of Christianity was the state religion and paganism was the on the out, now, the church began to change, unfortunately, for some reason, began to well up and it became the men's club, unfortunately. But even even for centuries after that, all the way up till the 1300s women had a large part to play in church life. Contrary to the way it had been after 1300 up until 1900 women basically had no say. So had no part to play. Were not allowed to so. 

So not only is gay and lesbian history part of this women's history, also the history of blacks, of people of color, of different races, of different cultures, as they relate to Christianity, has been hidden from most people. To realize that St Augustine probably was a black male, is something that a lot of people don't ever get and so, you know, it's just, it's sad that our history is deprived. We are deprived of our history and not told what happens. All throughout that time, then, Christianity was, that was the one who fought for the rights of the powerless. The apostle James, in writing said this is pure religion and undefiled before God, to visit the orphans and the widows in their need and to keep yourself in spotted from the world. The whole point of that was that you didn't become like the rest of the world had been indifferent to the voiceless and the powerless, and Christianity was the religion of the powerless. 

And along about 1000 ad things began to change. There began to be fights among the church about homosexuality. It came into question. Clergy marriages came into question, not only that, but allowing Jews to operate banks and lending institutions came into question. And the first letter and council of 1123 ad forbid Jews to hold public office. Forbid Jews from having any any banking rights. That same Council eradicated all previous clergy marriages and annulled them, in effect, making many, many people illegitimate births. It progressed from bad to worse then.  1179 A.D., there was a backlash among the heterosexual clergy. Then, because the homosexual clergy, because of this argument was going on, were the ones who pushed through celibacy. And then in 1179 A.D. the church, for the first time declared homosexuality to be a sin. 

And after that point, it gets even worse. 1215, AD, at the fourth Lateran Council was truly war on minorities. Heterosexual marriage was sacramentalized. Jews were forbid to even hold, to even be involved in the public, and had to wear special patches to show who they were. It culminated, probably in 1492 and and, and, sadly enough, all that were ever really given from history about 1492 is that that's the year that Columbus encountered the New World, encountered the Americas. There was more than that. European history is sad at that point, because in 1492 was when the final expulsion of Jews from the continent of Europe took place. Every Jew on the continent of Europe was forced to leave in 1492.

All that started back at the same time that homosexuality began to be an issue. It started when tribalistic cultures like the Lombards, the Visigoths, had become the nobility. They had become the ruling classes. They had become the ruling classes in the church as well. Because traditionally in church history, unfortunately, the ruling classes generally tended to be the bishops and the archbishops and and tribalistic cultures are clannish, and in that sense, they prefer people to procreate, because that is the way that they maintain and survive. And so they generally tend to be opposing to homosexuality, and that's exactly what happened within the framework of the church. 

John Hilgeman  14:08  
Just a second here. This is, I'm this is John hilgaman with lambda reports, talking with Brad Wishon about homosexuality in Christian history. Okay, Brad, 

Brad Wishon  14:19  
okay, get me to stop. That's right, just for a second. By 1200,  homosexuality came to be a sin. The common person. It did not catch up with society for another 100 years. But by the mid 1300s that what the church at once, as John Boswell puts it, what the church had once joined together in holy union and now burned at the stake. The Inquisition, many times, was one of the three arguments, was that a person was her and heretic, that they were a foreigner or a traitor and that they were a sodomite. Now prior to that. Sodomite had meant anyone who had unprocreative sex. It came to mean a homosexual, unfortunately, be that gay or lesbian. And so it came to be one of the three charges leveled against anyone that the church burned, which, which is a disgusting period of church history when the church turned on its own, and rather than tolerating difference, was intolerant of any difference. And don't get your neighbor angry at you, because they'll turn you in. And you know, the only thing you can do is hope that they believe you when you say no. And that's sad. That's sad, because there was no such thing as evidence to be produced. 

So by the 1300s then the church was murdering the very people who had been instrumental in building the church. What happened was a change of cultures that controlled, and when the cultures changed that controlled, it changed the whole world as or at least the European sector of the world, and homosexuality became something horrible and something evil as early as 1000. It's interesting, nine hundreds are a real good period for Christianity, because it was one of the most loving periods, and some of the greatest love poetry was written by by clergy in that period. Al mutatin was a a caliph in Zaragoza in Spain, one of the Moors, and he had approached a Christian page and had tried to kiss him, and the Christian page refused. And finally, the Caliph had the Christian page martyred, but not for his faith, but because he refused. The interesting thing is, the Christian page did not refuse the Caliph on the grounds of homosexuality being sinful or evil or anything. He refused him because they weren't the same religion, and that's the way the whole story went about it. 

So so, you know, it's just like, in a matter of 200 years, everything fell apart, and then came the time when the church would kill its own its own children. From that moment on, we've had to deal with this, with this fight. It has been an upward battle ever since, and we are still below what I call a line of tolerance. The Church does not tolerate its gay and lesbian children. And when I say the church, I mean all Christian denominations, does not tolerate its gay and lesbian children. There is not one Christian denomination other than the Metropolitan Community Church and independent churches. There are local congregations of different denominations that are tolerant, but there's not one denomination that has come out favorably about gay and lesbian relationships. It saddens me when I see that they're willing to let let us come to church, but they won't marry us. They won't let us participate in the life of the church. They won't celebrate our love. And that just goes all through me when I know what church history was like, when I know what the Scriptures were like, but we've been fighting that battle now for almost 1000 years with the church. 

By 1400 the church was in full swing in murdering people for being homosexual. The Geneva sodomy trials that date from 14 to 1700 go for page after page after page of people who were put to death because they were gay or lesbian. It's just amazing. What was done then at that point, not only though, is it the Roman Catholic Inquisition that did it, but even after the Reformation, the Protestants had an inquisition too, and the target of it was gay and lesbian people. So it isn't any one group. It hasn't been just one group. It has been a mindset that entered the church after the church had been around for over 1000 years, a mindset of intolerance for those who are different. So I guess the greatest challenge that had existed during that time was to make sure that difference was celebrated and was accepted and was shown to be God's diversity, and then everything became homogenized. Once that happened, there was no hope left for those who were different. We're not the majority.

John Hilgeman  19:30  
Where do we go from here? I mean, like we're in the midst of kind of a cultural revolution. We're in the midst of a worldwide lesbian and gay movement, in addition to a women's movement, in addition to, you know, movements of minorities and movements of you know, we got radical changes going on at places in the whole world. Major portions of the world are in flux. And of course, you know, in a time of crisis, it can be a time of opportunity or a time of devastation. But where do you see us going from here? 

Brad Wishon  19:59  
I  wish I had a clear sense of where we are going again. It can be either we can either go forward for ourselves, or this can become a time of true intolerance. Unfortunately, times of flux like that. You never know which one is going to turn out. Where I would like to see us go. I like to see us go forward. I would like to see us take this opportunity to change the face of the world, to change the way people view one another, that all human beings, regardless of difference, that Christians learn that, that if someone's not a Christian, that does not mean they're not good. That just means they're not a Christian, and that's okay. That's their choice. That's fine. That Muslims learn that same learn lesson, that someone who's white learn that because someone has a different skin color doesn't mean that they're less than it means they're different, that that men learn that that women are not objects, that they were never meant to be owned, that God has created all of us equal, and that the whole point of what we're doing, why we call ourselves Christian or Christianity, is to liberate people from the idea that it's not okay, that everyone is on an equal footing here. There was a Pharisaic prayer with Pharisees were a group of learned Jews, Jewish scholars in the time of Jesus and the apostle Paul, and to show the state of the times, there was a Pharisee prayer, and it said, God, I thank Thee that I was not born a Gentile. God. I thank Thee that I was not born an ignorant man. God, I thank Thee that I was not born a woman. Paul had been a Pharisee prior to his conversion. Upon his conversion, he authored something to the Galatian Church, which was dealing with some of these very issues. And he said, "For in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, and in Christ there is neither slave nor free, and in Christ there is neither male nor female, but all are one." All are on the same footing. And that was he understood intimately because he had been a Pharisee what was being said. And so that's why he wrote that was to show that that it's not to be that way anymore, that everyone's have equal footing. So I guess what, what I would like to see is a vision where, where there was an equal footing, where everybody had equal ground, where we we fight for a world where it doesn't matter whether you're straight or gay, what matters that you're a person, that rather than it being okay for us to walk down the street hand in hand, it to be unnoticeable for two men or two women to walk down the street hand in hand. That's what I see for the world. That's a vision that I have. What I would like to fight for is a place where it's just normal for people to be loving, that it doesn't matter what they are, that a straight man could learn to be flattered if a gay man thought he was attractive or vice versa, you know, 

John Hilgeman  22:53  
instead of responding very viciously and violently, 

Brad Wishon  22:57  
rather than being threatened. Yeah, that's so sad. That's okay, though. I guess gay men are in good company, because straight men are straight men are threatened when straight women think they're attractive too. And if they do act on it, they usually get threatened then, too. So it's just amazing, the way the world is, the where we've come from, it seems like sometimes you wonder, then if we've made any progress whatsoever, and in the agenda in the arena of learning to live together. I every once while have to sit back and question, have we? Have we really learned any lessons? And what's sad to say is, is that we haven't even been given any information so that we can learn them. 

John Hilgeman  23:34  
Well, when one of the things that like you're talking about the Christian history and all this information. And, I mean, a lot of it is available, but you have to kind of dig in a lot of it's, I mean, we're not given a lot of this information when we grow up and we go to school, especially those who go to parochial schools and not given this information, and not giving this information in public schools. But even, even, like the media, they cut out a lot of stuff. I mean, we the March on Washington, which was like, you know, Lesbian and Gay March on Washington in 87 which was maybe, you know, 600,000, 800,000 people. It was a huge March. And it was, I mean, one would never know that there was this March in a lot of places, certainly not in St. Louis, yes. And a lot of things are going on that are not reported unless you read like the gay press, the lesbian press, and then you find out about a lot of these things. And so when, if, if people don't have, I mean, it's almost as though a portion of history can be deleted. And even the media, in handling the presidential candidates, where they'll, you know, use a lot of minor stuff or stuff and make comments about, well, this person is not really speaking to the issues. And you listen to these people, maybe they really are speaking to the issues, but you never hear all these details on the media, because they're in for the sound bites and they're not in for the substance. 

Brad Wishon  23:34  
Yes, they don't, well, they don't even care about the substance. The sad part about the. Is, is so many of the people who could be controlling some of this are brothers and sisters, yeah, who if they would dare to risk and step out from behind their fear and step out of their closets and put it out there and get it out there, then maybe there would be some mass social change, 

John Hilgeman  24:15  
people in the media, people in the churches, people in the politicians, 

Brad Wishon  24:27  
if every one of us stood up one day, they couldn't stop us. Unfortunately, we're not all at the same space at the same moment in time. 

John Hilgeman  25:10  
I know all kinds of gay Catholic clergy, for instance, in the city of St Louis. And I mean, this is something that I just knew, you know, know, you know different individuals and but you would never know this. And I know throughout the clergy, you kind of were talking, I think, in our last program, about about the shamans, and how this is a role that gay people have played throughout history, and this is, I think, still today, where you have gay people playing the role in churches, gay men and lesbians as you know, religious leaders, as the shamans, except that people don't know them specifically as being gay or lesbian.

Brad Wishon  26:12  
They've hidden it. Sure that we've done such a good job at trying to hide ourselves that we haven't had to be buried many times by other people,

John Hilgeman  26:20  
but we still play the roles, 

Brad Wishon  26:22  
yes, yes, and hopefully, then there'll be a surge of courage among those individuals. 

John Hilgeman  26:29  
Hopefully So. I'm sorry that we have to end at this point, Brad. This is John Hilgeman with Brad Wishon, the pastor of Metropolitan Community, Church of Greater St. Louis, and we've been talking about homosexuality and Christian history, and I thank you for joining us this morning. Hope you can join us again for Lambda Reports next Sunday. 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai