Charles Koehler 0:01 Chances are good that a number of you, our listeners, will be attending a church service this Sunday morning. So as you get ready to attend the church or temple of your choice, we'd like for you to reflect a moment on today's program as we talk about religion, faith and homosexuality with us today is John Hilgeman, co-host of Lambda Reports, who holds a master's degree in theology and divinity and worked for many years as a priest, therapist and social worker. Good morning John. John Hilgeman 0:36 Good morning Charles, Charles Koehler 0:39 When some people hear the words religion and homosexuality in the same sentence, It bothers them. Why is that? John Hilgeman 0:47 Well, I think it's because a number of religions have laws against homosexuality, and I think that's why some people are bothered, especially if they're very devoted to what their religion teaches. A thing to keep in mind, though, is that, you know, for some of these religions, the prescriptions against homosexuality arose in a culture, for instance, like in Palestine, where there was a big emphasis on having children and on propagating the people. And so any kind of behavior you know, such as same sex behavior, other behaviors like that that didn't keep the people going were opposed. Plus in the Land of Canaan, which the Israelites were settling, part of the religion, part of the Canaanite religion, involved ritual prostitution, which involved both males and females. And so this is one reason that you know, because it was considered part of a pagan religion that people would be against that. Charles Koehler 1:58 So early on, it seems that the whole issue of homosexuality was linked to prostitution, and it was there was a proscription against it, it was forbidden because of the prostitution element of it, not necessarily because same-sex behavior. John Hilgeman 2:15 That's right. In fact, if you look at the Book of Leviticus, what you find there is that the prescription against homosexuality fits in what's called a holiness code, and there's a number of other things that are not allowed either, such as eating certain types of meat or fish, such as wearing red and other things like that. So it's part of a holiness code which sets people apart from the pagans around them, Charles Koehler 2:42 Many people say that God says that homosexuality is wrong. What do you have to say about that? John Hilgeman 2:51 I'd say, first of all, I haven't personally talked with God, and I don't know just what God actually does or doesn't say. I know that people believe certain books are God's words. And I would say that, you know, like I've seen a bumper sticker that says, God said it, I believe it, and that settles it. Charles Koehler 3:11 I remember seeing that, yeah, yeah. John Hilgeman 3:13 And what I've done at different times that I've seen that on a parking lot is I've taken out a piece of paper and written a note that I've put under one of the windshield wipers saying your note should read, or your bumper sticker should read, I believe God said it and that settles it. Because, you know, a person may believe that a book is God's word, but that doesn't prove that it is. And I think another thing that we've got to look at is that God also speaks through nature, and we have to see what nature has to say about behavior, about people, about life, about reality. Charles Koehler 3:49 And by nature You mean the things that that are around us, the things that we can feel, touch, see, hear, John Hilgeman 3:54 That's right. Charles Koehler 3:54 that's part of our experience. John Hilgeman 3:56 That's part of our experience, plus our own selves, our own personal experience of life and what life is. And you know what, what that means to us. And you know, for instance, if I, if I look at this table that all this equipment is set up on, I say, Well, now that probably whoever made this had some intelligence and had some good tools and had some some ways of measuring things here, and they had stuff to work with. And if I look at the world, you know, I I can, you know, I don't really know that any being made this, but from my own experience of what I see around me, like through this table, I would figure that probably there's some intelligence to put all this together. But you know, the God, if there is a God who put all this together, who made the trees also made the ducks and made the lions and made the planets and made planets different from each other. People were discovering that some of the planets that some of these voyagers have gone out to are very different from anything that had been seen prior in the solar system. So there's God. Idea of this being has a tremendous imagination, and so I'd say we got to look and see what people have to say about their own experience of life, their own experience of sexuality, their own experience of God. You know that that's where we're going to get a better sense of what God really says than if just looking at a book that people simply believe God said. Charles Koehler 5:23 it's very true that that that people can be very different and but that doesn't necessarily mean that it that it's good. And some, some people might say that individuals are lesbian or gay or homosexual because of influence of sin on them, are because it's an evil that's that's being manifest in them. How would, how would someone respond to something like that? John Hilgeman 5:48 Well, I guess you could respond in two ways. One is prove it, you know. I guess another way would be, well, I mean, they, they say that the Bible says that it's, it's, it's, Once again, once again, though, I say that's what people believe. If people want to believe that the Bible is God's word, then first of all, they're making a choice to believe that. I don't believe that homosexuality is about is an abomination, and a lot of people don't. Okay, you know, there's, there's, if we want to go by what the Bible says, there's lots of other things that we'd have to, you know, go by too, for instance, in Deuteronomy, it says that, Charles Koehler 6:26 as a matter of fact, we have the New Testament Bible in front of you, John Hilgeman 6:30 The new English Bible. Charles Koehler 6:31 And what page is that on? John Hilgeman 6:33 Well, this is on page 220, what this says about juvenile delinquency is when a man has a son who is Charles Koehler 6:39 Deuteronomy, by the way. John Hilgeman 6:40 Yeah. Chapter 21 verses 18 to 21 it says, When a man has a son who is disobedient and out of control and will not obey his father or his mother or pay attention when they punish him, then his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of the town. At the town gate, they shall say to the elders of the town, this son of ours is disobedient and out of control. He will not obey us. He is a wastrel and a drunkard. Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death, and you will thereby rid yourselves of this wickedness. Charles Koehler 7:10 That's verbatim. John Hilgeman 7:11 That's a quote from, from Deuteronomy, at least from the translation of Deuteronomy, KRJY Announcer 7:17 K-R-J-Y St. Louis. John Hilgeman 7:19 Which brings us to another problem. When people say that the Bible says something, they're talking about what a translation says, and oftentimes the original words aren't really clear. For instance, in Corinthians, when Paul talks about, he condemns people who are 'arsenokoitai' and 'malakoi'. You know, those are two words that are used to describe, you know, they're translated in various ways in the Middle Ages, malakoi, and then people who masturbate. But somehow, along the line, that got dropped, and so it's been used to refer to homosexuals, to people who are effeminate, to people who are Charles Koehler 8:00 not masculine, John Hilgeman 8:01 not masculine, to people who are, sometimes it's translated as people who are into prostitution. You know, prostitution with boys and all these other things. So the words themselves are not very clear exactly what Paul is talking about. So to use those terms and say the Bible says this, you got to say, Well, what does the Bible, the original Bible, really say? The fact is, it's not all that clear, and a lot of things. And if we take some of the things that the Bible says, you know, we'd have to say, well, slavery is okay, people … Charles Koehler 8:32 Slavery. John Hilgeman 8:33 slavery is okay. Because that's Paul says, slaves obey your masters, Charles Koehler 8:41 Okay. And if I'm not mistaken, that that interpretation of the Bible was used during the Civil War to justify slavery and was used before then, while we're talking about this, what just what does Jesus Christ have to say about homosexuality? John Hilgeman 8:59 Well, now how long do you want me to pause, because pausing, well, Jesus says nothing. Charles Koehler 9:06 You're saying that nowhere in the entire Bible, New Testament or Old New Testament John Hilgeman 9:11 In the Gospels is where Jesus is speaking. Charles Koehler 9:14 Speaking. There is not a single reference from Jesus. John Hilgeman 9:18 There's only one possible reference possible, and this, I believe, is in Matthew where he says, if you call your brother Raqqa, you are liable to the judgment. And the word 'Raqqa' is sometimes translated as fool. But what it seems to mean, and it's not even totally clear here, but what it seems to mean is a word such as faggot. If you call your brother a faggot, or if you call your brother a fairy, you're liable to the judgment. Charles Koehler 9:47 So if indeed Jesus Christ did say anything about homosexuality, then it is that it's not okay to condemn those who are openly gay. John Hilgeman 10:02 That quite right. Charles Koehler 10:03 Okay, I guess at this point I'll invite all of our listeners to spend some time looking through their Bible and see if they can find something that goes contrary from the words of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. What did what did Paul have to say about homosexuality? John Hilgeman 10:22 Well, Paul said a number of things I already mentioned, you know, in Corinthians, but he also talks in Romans about nature. You know, for a man to lie with a with a man or a woman to lie with a woman, it's against nature. But he says other things about nature. He says that, you know, it's unnatural for, you know, I guess, a woman to cut her hair short, or, I forget exactly what, what all he, he uses there. But in other words, he the word, the term nature. And Paul doesn't seem to be nature, the way we interpret nature. You know, it seems to be custom, rather than nature, plus Paul when he's talking about, when he's talking about the in Romans, you know, that passage that people commonly use to condemn homosexual behavior, he also talks about, you know, other kinds of behavior. And let me see if I can find that here in just a second. Charles Koehler 11:16 Okay, we're going through the Bible here, John Hilgeman 11:20 and I've got to find which book I've got this marked in here. Charles Koehler 11:30 I see that John Hilgeman 11:31 I'm trying to find a particular interpretation of Romans. But he uses other other things, such as a lying, you know, in same context and some of his his letters, he also condemns lying and other things like that. So in other words, if, if somebody lies about people, you know, he doesn't make any difference between that and the man lying with a man or a woman lying with a woman. What he's what he's really trying to say in Romans, that is that all of us are in need of God's grace, whether we're Jew or Gentile. And so that's the thrust of the thing. He's He's not saying, you know, certain people are worse than other people. He's not saying, if you do this, you know, tough it's Charles Koehler 12:12 wiped off the face of the earth, John Hilgeman 12:13 wiped off the face of the earth. What he's saying is that all of us are sinners. You have to read the whole passage, all of us are sinners and in needs of God's grace. And therefore that's that's the real meaning of the passage. Charles Koehler 12:23 What exactly is meant by bearing false witness against your neighbor when it comes to talking about homosexuality and religion? John Hilgeman 12:31 I think one of the things we can see there is what a number of Charles Koehler 12:34 bearing false witness is one of the Ten Commandments, which is sort of the foundation of Christians John Hilgeman 12:36 said, You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Okay, one at one of the basic commandments. See, one of the problems that it happens with some preachers and politicians is that they don't really know anything about homosexuality, and yet they act as though they do Charles Koehler 12:56 Well, they they do know something about homosexuality, but it's not necessarily based on, on truths that have been scientifically researched, and, and, and modern, modern knowledge. That's John Hilgeman 13:10 Well, then that's not knowledge. And that's simple, right? That's right, that's, that's simply theory or belief. And like when I read the Vatican Statement on Homosexuality a couple years of the period, about three years ago or so, four years ago, you know, as I read through it, where it was, you know, saying that gay relationships were, could not be good and were destructive. And I thought, you know, I know a lot of gay couples. That's not true. Or if I hear, you know, read a statement by Jerry Falwell that gay people would just as soon kill you as look at you. I said, Well, that's, that's, that's outright falsehood. Now, if he believes that or not, it's false. I mean, the fact is a fact. It is a fact is that lesbian and gay people tend to be extremely non-violent people. When you really look at the record, for Charles Koehler 14:05 That can be backed up by not only religious individuals, but also by the FBI reports and sure Justice Department reports, etc. John Hilgeman 14:13 When Harvey Milk was was murdered by Dan White, what had, the response of the gay community was a tremendous March, candlelight March, non-violent. Charles Koehler 14:25 For our listeners. This is Charles Koehler and John Hilgeman talking about homosexuality and religion here on Lambda Reports. As you were saying about about the the candlelight march with the after Harvey Milk had been assassinated, that's right. First gay, openly gay elected official John Hilgeman 14:43 in San Francisco, if they believe in a creation, and gay people have a tendency to be very spiritual. Charles Koehler 14:51 I think that's something that can be seen time and time and time again, particularly with the issue of AIDS. I've seen. This, personally, I bring out a a dimension of spirituality among lesbian and gay people that I hadn't seen anywhere in society as a whole. It's, it's, it's remarkable and very touching. John Hilgeman 15:14 Oh, very much. People going into meditation, people, people really devoting their lives to working, you know, to trying to do away with this disease, devoting their lives to people with AIDS, to helping others, to helping others, very much so, yes, and it's not the churches that initiated this at all. No, it's the lesbian and gay community, primarily, you know, first of all, the gay male community and the lesbian community, and then joined by friends, you know, and some people now remember, family members and people in the healthcare profession. It's kind of extended beyond that, but basically it has originated in the gay and lesbian community. Have have mainstream religions always been so rejecting of gays? No, no, not at all. In fact, the tradition, the Native American tradition is a tradition which had roles for lesbians and gay men. Charles Koehler 16:10 They served a particular valuable role, if I understand correctly, a valued role. Sure within the tribe. John Hilgeman 16:16 Sure in some of the ancient myths of Western civilization and from Eastern civilization, are myths which describe relations of homosexual relations among the gods and creations and things like this happening so it certainly is not a universal thing. Much of the opposition to homosexuality originates in the patriarchal religions of you know, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Charles Koehler 16:48 What effect does it have on lesbian or gay person when they're rejected by their own religion, the religion that they grew up with, the temple that they went to when they were a child? John Hilgeman 16:59 Well, it poses a tremendous crisis. One thing to keep in mind too, is it that a church is the members, but it's really hard for people to understand that, because oftentimes people think of the church as the leaders or the building, or the building or whatever. But it's a tremendous crisis when, when this this church that you've grown up in, or this religion that you've grown up in that you've gotten some nurturance from, says that you, in your essence, in your very sexuality, are bad. It's really difficult to handle that. Charles Koehler 17:34 I believe that the Roman Catholic Church refers to it as objective disorder. John Hilgeman 17:40 That's right, that's what the Vatican did a couple, about three years ago, which so a lot of people leave, leave the churches. I mean, there's no point in continuing with the church that tells you you're bad. You can either buy that and and dry up inside, Charles Koehler 17:55 Hate yourself. John Hilgeman 17:55 hate yourself, or you can come to an acceptance of yourself, learn to love yourself as you are, and you know, kind of somehow make stay in the church and come to terms with come to terms with that, or, as a lot of people do, they just chuck it all, Charles Koehler 18:12 which is really a shame. John Hilgeman 18:14 Well, I don't know that it's a shame. I think you can, people can be growing beyond the particular religious tradition that they grew up in. Charles Koehler 18:20 But if they turn completely away from spirituality, or John Hilgeman 18:24 But many people don't turn completely away from Charles Koehler 18:25 But if they do choose to turn away from spirituality because of rejecting their own religion. I think that that that they're cutting themselves out of a possible area, John Hilgeman 18:37 In a sense, though, the church, or the remaining people in the church are the bigger losers, because they are challenged to grow. I mean, it's like in the in the early days of Christianity, when the question of whether or not to accept Gentiles was posed, people had to really deal with that. Are we going to demand that Gentiles become Jews before they become Christians or not? Eventually it was resolved, no, they don't have to, but there was a tremendous struggle for some time. That's what the churches are facing now. Are we going to demand that people become straight in order to be Christian or not? And the struggle is going on. Eventually, if the churches are going to be healthy and grow, they're going to have to come to the conclusion, no gay people can be themselves. Charles Koehler 19:24 Gay people are part of the diversity that makes up the whole spectrum of human John Hilgeman 19:28 That's right, part of part of God's creation. And indeed, the churches are much richer because many of the key members of the churches are lesbian and gay. Many of the leaders, leaders in the churches are gay and lesbian people today, I mean priests and bishops Charles Koehler 19:44 and that's proven in a very unfortunate and tangible ways by the number of priests that have contracted AIDS, and it wasn't through heterosexual activities or IV drug use. John Hilgeman 19:57 Sure, Charles Koehler 19:58 It's extremely unfortunate. A statement has been made that churches are sexual abusers of lesbians and gays. John Hilgeman 20:10 Yeah, I like that statement. Charles Koehler 20:12 and they're sexual abusers sexual that's a rather outrageous statement. John Hilgeman 20:16 It sounds outrageous, but when you look at it this way, that if a person like churches would be very much, if a person is physically sexually abused, churches and governments would say, hey, you know, we've got to stop this. We've got to get the perpetrator. We've got to do, you know, whatever, okay. But when it comes to a person's inner sense of who they are, their inner their sense, their sense of being, their sense of sexuality, such as females and gay people. When the churches say you cannot be who you are, you must be who you are not in order to please us, the churches are abusing the person's sexuality. So they are being sexual abusers. In other words, they're saying that your sexual it's and it leaves scars that are every bit as bad as if a person was physically abused sexually. It leaves a sense of guilt. It leaves a sense of, you know, worthlessness. It leaves all these things. And so the churches are unwittingly sexual abusers, I would say. Charles Koehler 21:22 Food for thought. Some people believe, we only have about one minute left, that or 15 seconds, some people believe that homosexuality can be cured through prayer, healing, any thoughts? John Hilgeman 21:32 It doesn't work. It doesn't work. Lots of people have tried. It does not work. People may stop behaving in a homosexual way, but their inner feelings and thoughts don't change. They just don't. Charles Koehler 21:47 That's all the time we have for today, John, we've been talking about religion, faith and homosexuality with John Hilgeman. We hope that we've given some food for thought and perhaps given some questions to ask of yourself, your family and perhaps your own religious leaders for information on religious organizations supportive of lesbians and gays in the St. Louis area, and there's at least 10 that are listed in the Lesbian and Gay News Telegraph. You can call the Lesbian and Gay Hotline at 367-0084 that's 367-0084, until next week, this has been Charles Koehler John Hilgeman 22:26 and John Hilgeman Charles Koehler 22:27 for Lambda Reports. Tune us in again, same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai