Charles Koehler 0:02 I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. The teen years can be trying times for kids, even when things are going well. But what happens when these kids discover they are different and feel they have absolutely no one to turn to, not even their best friends, their teachers, certainly not their parents. What do they do when they're lesbian or gay? Far too many of these kids attempt or commit suicide. Lesbian and gay teen suicide is our topic today, and with us is St. Louis Executive Director of Life Crisis Services, Lee Judy, good morning, Lee. Lee Judy 0:51 Good morning, Charles. Charles Koehler 0:53 Lee, I understand that according to a 1989 Federal Health and Human Services report that gay teens are two to three times more likely than their peers to attempt suicide, and up to 30% of all completed teen suicides, maybe by lesbian or gay teens. Why are these kids particularly at risk? Lee Judy 1:17 Well, I think one of the characteristics that puts people in general at risk is isolation, (Okay.) And it is true for heterosexual people as well as gay and lesbian individuals. People when they're divorced or when they're widowed or when they're immigrants, when they lose their job and they're isolated from their peers, when they get older and they lose their friends and are isolated, all are higher at risk for suicide. It doesn't mean that they will kill themselves. It doesn't mean they'll even attempt it depends on a number of other factors, but being isolated is one of those ingredients and and the report points out that that gay and lesbian youth are often isolated because of their beliefs and sexual preferences, and that isolation may be premature or different or more difficult for a teenager who is struggling with lots of other issues as well. But I think it's primarily that isolation factor of not feeling accepted anywhere that could happen. It might not happen. Depends on friends, family and how they react, but it could happen. Charles Koehler 2:36 And in many cases, it's that the kids are rejecting themselves, their very essence because of what many people see society's certainly not widespread approval of lesbians or gays, and it's sort of difficult to remove oneself from oneself, or distance oneself from who they innately are, Lee Judy 2:58 particularly at that time their life, when it's just a confusing time, emotionally, psychologically, anyway, so Charles Koehler 3:04 Yeah, you were mentioning some of the characteristics of people that are at risk for suicide. You mentioned isolation. What are some of the other characteristics that that people might be aware of or look for? Lee Judy 3:20 Well, there are several factors that we know put everybody at risk, and this doesn't seem to make any difference about whether it is a teen or an adult. They just put people at risk. One is depression, and depression has its indicators of sleep changes or mood changes or appetite changes, of things that we typically, I think, think of when, when we imagine somebody who is depressed, but we know and studies have shown that people who have committed suicide, a large percentage have depression as a as a psychiatric illness. Then other things that are less prevalent but also put people at risk are alcohol and drug abuse, a loss of any kind. So that can be loss of self-esteem, it can be loss of a job, it could be loss of a spouse, it could be loss of a friend, loss of a relationship, loss of health. Charles Koehler 4:25 or tying in with gay and lesbian, the loss of their preconceived notion of who they are. Lee Judy 4:31 Yeah, or should be, (should be) right, or their friends define them as they should be, or Yeah, and it is a loss of belonging. Many of those things have to do with just not being accepted. And you often hear stories about the kids who seem to have it all together and seem to be doing well, and all of a sudden they kill themselves, and sometimes it is because of a loss of identity or self-esteem, a football player who's always wanted to be captain, or somebody's always wanted to be president, and they've done everything else, and they don't get this, and this is a big deal, and they choose suicide as an option. Always is a surprise, but sometimes people choose that that way out. People who have attempted suicide before, or survivors of suicide so have lost someone in their family. So if we had two youth, one youth having survived suicide, and another not, the one who survived, would be higher at risk. People who have a psychiatric illness are also higher at risk. Charles Koehler 5:35 So it seems like a pretty comprehensive constellation of characteristics, Lee Judy 5:40 Yeah, and it's, it's a real complicated thing to predict. We're not very good at it. All we can do is take a look at people who have killed themselves, look at what we might have characterized them, and then, and then put them into categories and say, Yeah, most of these people were depressed, so therefore depressed people are higher at risk. And there are many more attempts and there are successful suicides. Charles Koehler 6:05 What sort of ratio, generally are we talking about? Lee Judy 6:08 Depends on the age range. (Okay.) for the elderly, it's four to one, and for teens, it's 200 sometimes like 1000 to one. Charles Koehler 6:16 Oh, really. So many, many more attempts than there are. I guess we can be extremely thankful of that in small ways. Lee Judy 6:23 if we pay attention to them. I think sometimes we miss those clues. I think kids attempt more, maybe because they try less serious means, elderly typically try,they know that's what they want to do, and try more serious means. I think oftentimes we look at teens who try suicide and we think, ah, they're just trying to get attention. You know, it's not really anything important. And we believe that anytime somebody uses suicide as a means to communicate something or attempts, it's serious business. Charles Koehler 6:54 Never, never take a suicide attempt lightly, (Right.) Or dismiss it that you said, if we get no other message across to our listeners, I think that's one of the things that we want to get across. Lee Judy 7:04 And just talk of suicide, doesn't have to be an attempt, but this similar kind of phenomenon of when people talk about suicide, talk about ending their life, it's not something that people do that often. It's something that we need to pay attention to. Our ears ought to perk up, and we ought to say, Boy, there's something going on there that I need to pay attention to. Charles Koehler 7:25 Well, let's say that one of our listeners, maybe a parent, hears or overhears their kids starting to talk about suicide. What reaction should they have? What can a parent do? Lee Judy 7:44 Well, they ought to immediately be concerned and take it seriously. I would recommend that they call Life Crisis. We have, for 25 years, been dealing with suicide in St. Louis. We're the only agency accredited by the American Association of Suicidology. That's our primary focus, and we welcome calls from parents and concerned people about someone who is suicidal. And if somebody jokes about it, or you see a change in their behavior that might make you think they're depressed, why should you be an expert in a subject that you don't deal with every day, and that's what we do. (I guess) we really welcome the call from so I don't know what's going on here. You know? I think, I'm not sure. I think my son or daughter left a message. Let me read it to you. What do you think we'd much rather that they do that, and let us then use our professional clinical judgment about it, and we're happy to call the particular child back and talk to them and work with them ourselves. But that's what I would recommend they do. Charles Koehler 8:51 Great. I think that there's a real reluctance of time for people to seek help, if it's of a psychological nature or whatever. But the the example that I've been I've heard mentioned before is that few of our, of our listeners, would attempt to do any sort of medical surgery on themselves if they had a medical problem, they would never attempt open heart surgery or removing their appendix. Why should they assume that they also have that same degree of expertise in an area that can be very, very complex. Lee Judy 9:26 That's a good analogy. I think too, suicide is a difficult subject to talk about. Charles Koehler 9:32 Just even talk about as a whole. Lee Judy 9:34 Yeah, even and when you call life crisis, the first question you get is, are you feeling suicidal? And our sense is that it's important to ask that question up front and let people know that we're okay talking about that. Charles Koehler 9:48 That's something that that's just not talked about in society. That's a question you would never hear come up in polite conversation, (Right.) It's not that it shouldn't come up, but (Right.) You just unfortunately don't. Lee Judy 9:59 And in fact your question about, what can parents do, or what can concerned individuals do. One of the things they can do is ask the person directly, are you thinking about suicide? Charles Koehler 10:12 Now, there's a preconception out there that I've heard that by asking that question that might cause it might trigger someone to them. Lee Judy 10:19 That is absolutely not true. Charles Koehler 10:20 That's a complete myth. Lee Judy 10:22 One of the myths of suicide. Charles Koehler 10:24 And what are some of the other ones that are out there that would be important to talk about? Lee Judy 10:30 Well, that's a fairly critical one. I think that to talk about suicide and then to talk about how they're going to do it, people don't want to do that either, and yet, that's the next most important step, that if a parent suspects something is concerned, says to their child, are you thinking about suicide? And the child says, yes. The next question we'll ask, and that they can ask is, well, have you thought about how you're going to do that? Charles Koehler 10:58 That's a scary question. Lee Judy 10:59 Scary question! Charles Koehler 11:00 Extremely. Lee Judy 11:01 But it tells us, and it would tell them to about how much time they have to deal with this issue. And if somebody has planned their suicide out, knows how they're going to do it, has the means, knows when they're going to do it, we assume that that they're at much higher risk than somebody who does not gives us more time to suggest that they get help here or here, rather than having to exercise some emergency procedures. Charles Koehler 11:31 What sort of resources are there in the schools as a whole for kids that might be suicidal? Lee Judy 11:40 I think that when you are suicidal, one of the difficulties is that you have put blinders on and have really isolated yourself. I heard a person who had attempted suicide a number of times talk about being in a like in a capsule and really isolated psychologically as as well as physically and so what might be ordinary options for you, you don't use. Like school counselors are great, but do kids go and talk to them? And they might at some times, but maybe when, not when they're feeling suicidal. Friends are great, but maybe not about suicide. And it's that encapsulation, that separation, that isolation, again, it's kind of one of these cycles that gets worse and worse, and you feel worse, and then you become more isolated, and you feel worse and you're more isolated. If they could reach out to anybody who is good at caring and listening, that would be appropriate, but, but life crisis is a place, the reason we started was because of some research that talked about ambivalence of suicidal people, that they don't, 90% of them aren't really clear that that's what they want to do. That's why hotlines work. These people bothered to call us in the first place. If, out of that ambivalence, they can pick up the phone and call us. It's a confidential service. No one will ever know that they called. And I guarantee you that the people they'll be talking to will be the most caring group of people that they could talk to. Skillful people can be really helpful. Understand suicide, understand the depth of the psychological pain that they're feeling. And that's that's an option. We, three years ago, started a teen line for teens, and it's staffed just by teenagers. We're one of few in the country that does this, and we train our teens the way we train our adults. And if you call the teen line, you'll get a teenager, and that might be an option of something to do when when they can't reach out to anybody, here's an anonymous person that will listen to them and understand and really feel the pain. Charles Koehler 13:59 Many of the the gay and lesbian adults and gay and lesbian kids, or kids who think that they might be lesbian or gay, whatever, are struggling with their sexual identity know all too well first hand the rejection that society as a whole get gives them. They see it day in and day out. They experience it firsthand. That in and of itself can be very encapsulating, as you refer to. And I think that one of the things that that is extremely important to know is that the individuals that are with life crisis and also that are with the teen hotline are definitely sensitive to issues surrounding gay and lesbian issues. I think that that's that's extremely important to get across, that that they won't be seen as individuals that don't warrant, that don't warrant a serious response. Lee Judy 15:02 Well, one of the that's an important point you're making, and let me emphasize that in another way. (Sure.) One of the things that we work real hard to achieve in our volunteers is a non-judgmental approach to the caller. (Okay.) And it is something that's difficult for everybody, because we all have our own biases and prejudices and values about things. Part of the training and the training that we we give for crisis workers is a 60 hour extensive training program with lots of supervision, but part of it is to help those crisis workers determine what are their values. That might get in the way of them being non-judgmental about a caller, because we know that as soon as we are judgmental, the caller is not going to trust us, not going to talk anymore. And we know if that happens, that we've lost our opportunity to be helpful and to make a difference in their life. So we work hard at that in training and in supervision, so a gay or lesbian youth is treated as someone with very serious, real issues, even if the person on the other end of the phone does not happen to be gay or lesbian, it's that we treat in the same way of an alcoholic caller or someone who is struggling with lots of life issues. That might not be my values, but they're struggling, and that's what we're here for. It's what the community pays us to do great Charles Koehler 16:31 I think also, I'll throw this in right now, something I just learned that I think is extremely significant is that the lesbian and gay hotline that's been in existence for a number of years, that that suicidal calls to the lesbian and gay hotline, or crisis calls when there's not someone available at the lesbian and gay hotline are referred to Life Crisis Services. I see that as being an extreme testament to the capability of the staff of professionals and volunteers that you have. I think that's very important to get across. Lee Judy 17:12 If it's true for all of your listeners, no matter what their particular issues. (Very true.) that if they have some difficulty with anything that I would hope that whoever they get on our phones will not be judgmental about that, and they can feel that's it is a part of what we're the service we're supposed to deliver. But it's a real service. I mean, it's not something that that these volunteers also now I have to do that. It's something that I notice, that they they feel honestly, it's my it's a way I can be professional on these phones, is to be non-judgment. Charles Koehler 17:47 It's part of the whole training and all. We were talking about the isolation that that lesbian and gay kids experience as they're going through this struggle of moving into adulthood and trying to find out who they are. And one of the resources when they're in a crisis situation, of course, is life crisis or the lesbian and gay hotlines. There are a number of community resources for for kids out there as a whole, but when, when you're a lesbian or gay kid, what, what sort of resources might there be for them? Or do you feel that there might need to be some additional resources? Lee Judy 18:32 I think that's probably true with almost any population and concern that there could be more resources. Charles Koehler 18:38 for instance, for the black community, Lee Judy 18:40 for the poor community, for the wealthy community, for anybody who there's probably never enough of anything. And I think the more specialized one is in their work, the easier it is to relate. We run self-help groups at Life Crisis for people who have survived suicide, people have attempted suicide, and for bulimics, and our whole thinking behind that is that those are people who might best relate to other people who are struggling with the same issues, and so they are self-help groups. And I would guess that any of those kinds of things that could be done in the community would be helpful to a caller who's struggling with some issues. The best thing for a gay or lesbian youth to do who's looking for resources, who's struggling with much of these issues, is to call Life Crisis. We have on computer 900 agencies and 150 private therapists. They're all cross-categorized, and we have categories for gay and lesbian callers, and we would check that and check sliding scale, or check what the other issues are. And then it would come up with a list of resources, particularly for them, written by people who have said, "Yes, this is a population that I want to work with, and that I have particular skills in working with," so our hope would be we could match them up, and that'd be one way to find out what's available. Charles Koehler 20:04 I might mention that I know of someone who has actually done that and followed up, and I'll verify exactly what you said, that they were able to, that they were referred to an appropriate agency, and the agency was very, very helpful in meeting their needs. So it's a real, real need. Can you tell us about some of the the other things that Life Crisis Center does? Do you ever need volunteers? If people ever need additional money. Lee Judy 20:38 And volunteers are kind of like money to us, because we we need them to operate the phones. We have 150 volunteers that we have put through our training program, and we ask for a year's commitment working one three hour shift a week. In exchange for that, we we give some of the best training, I think, in town, in terms of learning how to listen, non-judgmentally, to people, and many of our volunteers, after going through training comment on boy, been able to use these skills at home and in other relationships that I'm in, and I'm getting more out of this volunteering than I'm giving. It turns out to be such a rewarding experience, but we always need volunteers. We have training just about every month. It is 60 hours, as I mentioned before, pretty much every Tuesday night, Thursday night and Saturday for a month, very thorough and and a lot of fun. And you get to meet some real interesting people who are concerned about similar issues. There are lots of things that I think qualify it as a reason to volunteer. Our goals in the coming years are to let more people know about Life Crisis. Charles Koehler 21:56 And this might be one of the ways, in a small way. Lee Judy 21:59 Sure, well, I'm delighted to be on your show. It's also, though, means as we reach more people, we need more volunteers, and we ask for a year's commitment. Well, there are always people rotating off, who get moved and decide that they're doing something else with their life. And so we always have some turnover in volunteers, and always need more, and they just need to call the business office at 647-3100 to get information about that, say that they want to volunteer. We'll send them an application. Tell them when the training times are, and be happy to talk to them about it. Charles Koehler 22:33 Who typically makes a good volunteer? Lee Judy 22:38 Well, we don't have any. It's kind of an interesting issue, because there isn't any one thing that sticks out. Most of the people who volunteer for us are busy, work full time, go to school full time, and that's not as I might have imagined. You might think, Oh, these are people a lot of time on their hands. And what it turns out is that they don't. Many are people who have always enjoyed helping others find them, find themselves in positions where their friends always are talking to them or want their advice or want them to listen to them, people who have thought about the helping professions as a career. It's a great place to go and find out whether helping profession is, in fact, something that you want to do instead of going on for a program, a degree in a particular area, if you think, Well, you know, I think I maybe I've always wanted to do that, but I don't have any way of trying it out. This is a way to try it out Charles Koehler 23:31 And help other people in the process, and help yourself in the process. Lee Judy 23:34 That's right. Charles Koehler 23:35 Yeah, sounds like a very much a win win, win win type of situation. Lee Judy 23:40 But there isn't anything that that says you're going to make a good volunteer or you're not. I think the hardest thing that we have to do is to teach people to listen, and when they're able to listen in that active way and non-judgmental way, then they're okay. But there are many people that really want to tell you what to do, and can't get out of that mode, and then they just don't qualify to be on the phones. Charles Koehler 24:09 What, What sort of advice would you give to any of the lesbian or gay teens in our in our listening audience, or any of the friends or family members, just in general that might be, might be helpful in just getting through the teen years. Lee Judy 24:32 In this report that you referred to, the issue of isolation is such a critical issue, and I think among teens, it is just a critical issue period. I think parents can be and families can be part of that isolation factor. And by not accepting, not allowing to talk about, not almost avoiding, not even a. Uh, addressing a particular subject, and of being gay or lesbian would be one of those just, Charles Koehler 25:05 it's one of those dynamite issues that for most parents, they would they can't. Most parents, I'm sure you would agree, have difficulty talking about the whole issue of sex, period, period, yes, period. And then we're when you're going to add something as taboo as lesbian or gay issues. It's almost inconceivable for many, many parents that they they couldn't even broach the topic, Lee Judy 25:32 yes, so they avoid it or ignore it. And I think part of that then is this isolation so a parent who has the willingness and skills, perhaps, but more the willingness and the love for their kids to be open and let them talk about it and really listen to them, that would be, I think, as helpful as you could get. The next step beyond that, if that's not a part of knowing that your child is probably isolated, at least, from your family, would be to seek help for them, get them to talk to some counselor who really has the ability to make them feel accepted and will will help them work out their own problems. Charles Koehler 26:11 Not necessarily get them to change, what they are. Lee Judy 26:14 No, because that's more isolation. Someone says, I You can't be like that. No, that's wrong. And well, you don't want to listen to them anymore. And so more than anything, they need not to feel isolated. They need to feel accepted and okay, and one of the ways to do that is to find somebody who's willing to listen like crisis is one of those places that might be down this the way a bit. You can't talk about it in the family. You can't talk and find a counselor, and there aren't one. Aren't willing to do anything. And maybe you can get them to call Life Crisis and at least start, or call the teen line, at least start thinking about and talking about these issues. We, in turn, will try to refer them back, because that's not our job to be counselors. Our job is to deal with a crisis and refer them someplace. But that's a start. Charles Koehler 26:59 What sort of things perhaps, can a parent say to their their their teen, that the parent might have a thought that the teen might be dealing struggling with issues of whether or not they're lesbian or gay? What sort of things can they say to let that teen know that if they are that's okay. If they're not, that's okay. Lee Judy 27:23 Well, I'm not sure it's a matter of saying anything, as much it is a matter of listening. And the danger with saying anything is most often we say things in a way that transmits our biases about whatever it is we're saying okay. And a child might think that a parent has particular views about a particular subject, and so no matter how they say it, it might not come out the right way if a parent is able to listen. That's what we do, is listen. That's the most valuable thing they can do, and it's not asking questions, because those questions might come across as How could you? and Why didn't you? and I wouldn't do that, and what they need to be able to do more than anything, it's just, John, tell me about how you're feeling, and then let them go and repeat, if at minimum, just repeat back to these kids what they've heard them say, so that the kid has a sense, I'm not getting judged here. I'm really getting listened to. That's the that would be valuable. Charles Koehler 28:24 Unfortunately, that's all the time we have for this week. Lee, thanks very much for being with us and helping us to take a look at this whole issue. If you have any questions in terms of our listeners, our comments concerning suicide, you can reach the Life Crisis Center at 647-HELP that's 647-4357, there's also that very important teen hotline number at 644-KUTO that's 644-5886. I'd also like to remind our listeners of the Lesbian and Gay Hotline at 367-0084. Until next week. This is Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports. Tune us in again next week. Same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai