Charles Koehler 0:03 I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. Many members of the lesbian and gay community face rejection and disapproval from society at large, yet the pain of rejection is often most severe when it comes to the church or temple community they grew up with as a child. It's nice to know that there is at least one religious organization that accepts lesbians and gays for who they are. With us today are St. Louis Metropolitan Community Church Pastor Brad Wishon and MCC member Board of Directors, Barb Eufinger, good morning, and welcome to Lambda Reports. Brad Wishon 0:50 Good morning. Charles Koehler 0:52 Just what kind of church is Metropolitan Community Church, or we'll call it MCC, and that's MCC of Greater St Louis. What kind of church is it? Brad Wishon 1:02 MCC is a Christian church. We are, like most traditional Christian churches, very orthodox in our beliefs surrounding Christ. We are very different in the sense that we basically form our beliefs solely around Christ, other doctrines are what I call peripheral issues, and we focus solely on the fact of Jesus Christ. And the other things that we don't necessarily agree on are peripheral issues, and they're not the important things. As long as we agree on Jesus, on Christ, we are in Christian church, Christ centered. Charles Koehler 1:38 So how would you say that it differs from most well called, so called mainstream religions. Use the term mainstream a little bit hesitantly, but yeah, how would you … Brad Wishon 1:51 it's different? We could name a lot of little differences. I guess it's major one is our views surrounding homosexuality, that we do not believe that God nor the scriptures condemn homosexuality, rather that that all people in their ability to love and to join together are affirmed by God, by the scriptures, and that that's the purpose of Christianity is to affirm people in that ability to love. Charles Koehler 2:19 Now I'm sure that there's a number of our listeners that would take issue with you in regards to the issue of what, let's say, the Bible, or whatever says about, about homosexuality. But I think it's significant, and I'm sure you'll agree with me that Jesus Christ himself never uttered a single word regarding homosexuality. Is that accurate or not? Brad Wishon 2:41 That's accurate. He never, never, in any way, condemned homosexuality. Charles Koehler 2:45 Okay, great, right? Barb, how did you get interested in MCC. I understand you're a board member. Barb Eufinger 2:54 I saw a public service announcement on the television, Charles Koehler 2:59 Really, really Barb Eufinger 3:01 well the soapbox announcements that mentioned MCC, and this came along when I was making this abrupt turn in my life, and was wondering how to go about that the best way, not just for myself, but considering that I had a child, also Charles Koehler 3:19 I see Barb Eufinger 3:20 what I knew about the gay community in quotes was not very much, and this looked like a good place to find out that was non-threatening. You know, how much, how much trouble could I get into going to church with my kid on a Sunday morning, Charles Koehler 3:38 and you found out that you didn't get in much trouble at all. Barb Eufinger 3:40 I didn't get in any trouble at all at the all at that point, I didn't. I found a very loving family, and I say that in the true sense of the word family. And I found the first version of Christianity that I could really accept, and the first church that I felt comfortable with to join because it didn't have all of these qualifiers on God's love. You didn't have to be this. You didn't have to be that. You were okay the way you were when you walked in the door. Charles Koehler 4:13 That sounds very affirming. Barb Eufinger 4:15 Very much so. Charles Koehler 4:18 Brad, how would How would you describe your religious services? Brad Wishon 4:22 Okay, our worship services are very unique. I teasingly tell people, sit there long enough on Sunday morning and you'll come to something that you're familiar with from your worship background. Charles Koehler 4:30 Okay, sounds rather eclectic, in a sense. Brad Wishon 4:34 Very. Our worship services are very different. We have three throughout the week, on Sunday morning, Sunday evenings and Wednesday evenings, and each one is very unique. Sunday morning is more of a liturgical service. Sunday evening is very much a freestyle service, and Wednesday evenings are Bible study. So it kind of branches out to meet the needs of a broad group of people. Charles Koehler 4:55 Okay, it sounds like it's pretty all inclusive. If you were to describe in further detail what an MCC service is like to someone who who had never gone to one before, I didn't know the first thing at all about it, what sort of characteristics would you use to describe the services? Let's say, take, for example, the the Sunday morning, one at 11 o'clock. Brad Wishon 5:24 Okay, I would call it, I guess I would, I would say that it's one of the most open places, where you can come in and sit down and you are yourself the way you are. You don't hide behind any walls or any closets. You're just yourself. It's very loving environment. One of the things most people who who come for the first time usually comment on as they're leaving is that there's so much love, and that's one of the things that will attract you and hold you at an MCC most MCCs are that way this. These are a group of people who've come to learn to accept themselves and that God loves them, and that's a tremendous changing force in people's lives. Charles Koehler 6:05 That sounds, you know, very, very reaffirming. How long has MCC been in St Louis? Charles Koehler 6:13 17 years. Charles Koehler 6:15 17 years. It's quite a while. And would you care to talk about that? Barb Eufinger 6:21 Well, going back 17 years, we originally met at a different church, Berea Presbyterian Church, I believe, and congregation moved to a building on Waterman, and church was there for several years. Many people still remember that, and this is the seventh year now that we've had our own building at 1120 Dolan Street. Charles Koehler 6:52 Okay, so it's, excuse me, it can be found in pretty much the little bit south and west of the downtown area, pretty close to Union Station, if I'm not mistaken, little bit south a block. What are some of the the the other activities that MCC is involved with? Charles Koehler 7:13 Okay, involved with. Okay in in terms of of such as most of the more popular, more familiar churches that that our listeners might be familiar with are involved with activities other than services. On Sunday, for instance, they might have some sewing clubs or, you know, parents groups or whatever. Yeah, are there, are there any any activities similar to that that MCC might be involved with? Brad Wishon 7:44 Oh, yeah. We have a number of different activities. We are. We have what we call parish families, which are small groups of people who get together on a regular basis for fellowship and to be able to develop bonds of friendship and support. We have a singles group that meets on a regular basis, a couple sharing group. We have Christian education classes. We have a number of social activities. They have we have dances and picnics. Coming up is our 17th anniversary weekend, the end of October, and we'll have the fourth annual homecoming dance. Homecoming the way you wish you could have. It could have been on Friday the 26th so there are a number of different activities outside of the regular worship services that go on on a regular basis. Charles Koehler 8:29 So in other words, it sounds like there's a number of activities to meet the widely diverse needs of the of your community that's involved with MCC Yeah, Barb Eufinger 8:38 As a part of our outreach also activities, not necessarily church related. Any kind of outreach has to be where the need is okay and need in any gay community is, seems to be meeting space, local Celebration Pride Committee meets in our building. There's a gay men's support group meets in our building. There have been other gay-related community organizations that have used our facilities for meeting space Charles Koehler 9:11 Growing American Youth Barb Eufinger 9:12 Growing American Youth. That meeting space isn't always available for a controversial group somewhere else, Charles Koehler 9:20 so we were controversial in quote marks. Barb Eufinger 9:22 Well, controversy is a big word these days, especially in Webster Groves Charles Koehler 9:27 Concerning picking up trash and, yeah, parents FLAG Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, for listeners, but go ahead Barb Eufinger 9:34 and that's, I think one of the more important things we've been able to do is to to put that that openness out to the community, that we are available, and we've been fortunate enough to have facilities that will allow a group to meet or to have a dance or a social a social function that they might not be able to have at the local VFW Hall. Charles Koehler 10:01 Okay, okay, I think that's safe to say that that might present a problem in some cases, at some VFW halls. I understand also in terms of organizations that early on that that St. Louis Effort for AIDS had their office at MCC and also had regular meetings there, until actually, EFA sort of grew out of the space that was available. So that was extremely important as our supplying not only a meeting space, but also a point of contact, if you will, for many different organizations. And I understand that the activities of Metropolitan Community Church in the St Louis area actually go outside of the lesbian and gay community in terms of support services that you provide. You are truly a church that is part of the community at large, the capital C community as we know it. Charles Koehler 10:25 Yeah, we're involved in different aspects of and other religious groups are involved in. We're involved in interfaith projects. We're involved in the annual dollar help drive, which is sponsored by Missouri energy care and Charles Koehler 11:20 union electric. Brad Wishon 11:22 Thank you. Charles Koehler 11:23 Can you tell us a little bit about about the dollar Help Program? Brad Wishon 11:26 The Dollar Help Program is a program designed to help pay for the energy, energy used by people who are low income, poor, fixed income, elderly who cannot afford the high heating bills in St Louis, and so it goes to try and help them. And each year, Dollar Help is a program that tries to raise money through local community organizations such as churches, temples, et cetera. And the faith community at large comes together once a year to work on a project to raise the money for dollar help. And we always participate in that each year. Charles Koehler 12:03 Great. You had also mentioned something about an interfaith Task Force, Brad Wishon 12:07 Interfaith, well, there's an interfaith the interfaith AIDS network. There was change the name, okay, we're involved with that. That is a group of diverse religious background, not just gay and lesbian oriented that meets to try and augment the ministry of helping people who are living with AIDS, and so we're involved with that, as well as other city-wide projects around aids and just around helping the homeless. Charles Koehler 12:38 And that it sounds like you, there's a true outreach, outreach by Metropolitan Community Church, St Louis, to the as we mentioned, to the community at large. When, when was it that that MCC was founded? I understand that it didn't start in St. Louis, and where did the name Metropolitan Community Church come from? Brad Wishon 13:07 Okay, Charles Koehler 13:08 Why was it founded? Brad Wishon 13:09 Why was it found? Charles Koehler 13:10 We're talking MCC 101, here history, Brad Wishon 13:14 The way. It's called the Universal Rellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches. It's a worldwide denomination. Point. It was founded in October of 1968 by Reverend Troy Perry, who is at this present time, moderator of our fellowship. It was founded because Reverend Perry himself had been thrown out of his denomination. They no longer wanted him preaching in their pulpits because he identified himself to them as a gay man, and Charles Koehler 13:44 I understand he was also married and children Brad Wishon 13:46 and married and had children. And after a few years of dealing with all that had went on, he came to grips with it and realized that God still loved him and that there needed to be a place where people could be themselves and know that they're loved by God just the way they are, the way they were created. So he started the first MCC in Los Angeles, and he called it the Metropolitan Community Church. And from then on, MCCs have sprung up in the last 22 years to the point that we're an international denomination. We're considered by the World Council of Churches as ours, by the National Council of Churches in the United States as the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the United States, Charles Koehler 14:26 really? That's impressive. Brad Wishon 14:28 We have churches just as recently as the Wall coming down between East and West Germany. We have study groups already in Poland, East Germany. There's a flood of people who want to know more about the message that says everyone, not just gay and lesbian, but everyone is creat… Brad Wishon 14:47 Ah, so that's so it's but we're generally, we've had very few instances of any problems in the neighborhood, as far as us being a gay and lesbian church. Charles Koehler 15:10 Why do you think that that is? Barb Eufinger 15:14 That's, I guess, part of a larger syndrome. If you were to look in especially the larger cities, you'd often find the MCC churches in less privileged neighborhoods, as it were, maybe because there is more acceptance. Struggling peoples, whatever, whatever the struggle is, have more tolerance of each other. It seems to fit. Charles Koehler 15:47 I was, I was wondering if you could address getting back to some of the support services that are provided to members of the community as a whole. You mentioned that there's a couples group and also singles group. Can you talk a little bit about that and where MCC fits in with that? Brad Wishon 16:07 Okay, we have different groups that meet for different support reasons, but as single people, one of the things that in American culture, period, it doesn't matter whether you're talking heterosexual or homosexual, there isn't affirmation of a person who is single or who chooses to be single. There's no affirmation of that. And that's one of the things we seek to do. When you get tired of being the third or the fifth or the seventh wheel in a group, then you have this group that meets and they have activities, and they they form friendships and they can, they can gain support from one another without being that third or fifth or seventh wheel. The couples group, up, nowhere are gay and lesbian couples affirmed. There isn't any affirming of their bonds between each other, and we've sought in that to have a group that says you can make it. We just this past Sunday, celebrated with a couple in our church their 30th anniversary. Charles Koehler 17:13 That's great. It's great. Brad Wishon 17:17 And we believe you can make it, that two people can develop a lifetime of love together. And so we try to affirm that. Barb Eufinger 17:25 That isn't that unusual. (Right.) We speak of that as something special 30 years together for a couple, sure, it is special, but it would be special for any couple, yes, and it is not unusual to find that in the gay community, men or women who have been in a committed, loving relationship for a number of year., They're married, that's for sure. And the rest of the world needs to know that this exists also. Charles Koehler 17:55 How … Let's, let's talk for a moment about the whole issue of marriage, or union ceremonies, or what have you. What is MCC's stand on that issue? Brad Wishon 18:11 Okay, we offer holy holy matrimony, the right of holy matrimony for heterosexual couples in our church who want to be married. (Oh, great.) We offer the right of holy union for gay or lesbian couples in our church who want to be married, we don't use the word matrimony because it's a legal term, (Okay.) So we use holy union, which signifies something different yet the same in the MCC or churches that are slanted toward gay and lesbian ministry, and I mean, not those part of the mainstream, (Okay.) Christianity are the only churches where you will ever be able to affirm and celebrate the love you have for another individual, Charles Koehler 18:52 Except in very isolated instances. But we were talking about as a whole that, I think that's a safe statement. Brad Wishon 18:57 because there are, well, there are no churches, no Christian churches other than MCC as far as denominations that will marry (Okay.) and lesbian couples; (Okay.) there are none. We perform this the right of holy union. We celebrate that. It's very much like any other marriage ceremony. It's a celebration of love, a lifetime commitment between two people, and it's celebrated in in word and action and symbolism of rings and candles and songs, and it's a joyous celebration of love. Charles Koehler 19:28 Are there any other ceremonies or activities that our listeners could identify with in terms of the more mainstream religious organizations that one would find at MCC. Brad Wishon 19:43 We have the sacraments of baptism and communion. Like any other Christian church, we have rights of blessing. We have rights of ordination, rights of membership, which is which are all very traditional Christian ceremonies. Charles Koehler 19:59 Brad, how did, how did you get interested in MCC. I've already asked Barb how she got involved. Brad Wishon 20:05 How did I get in… Charles Koehler 20:06 sound very, very important for you and made a major change in your life. Barb Eufinger 20:10 Very much so. Charles Koehler 20:10 yeah, yeah. Brad Wishon 20:12 From my earliest times, I've always been involved in the church, and I've always known that God loved me. I've also always known that I was gay. Charles Koehler 20:19 Now, when you say the church … Brad Wishon 20:23 Christian church. I don't mean any specific denomination. (Okay.) I don't believe anybody can lock God in a box and say, You're mine. Charles Koehler 20:32 I've never heard it put quite that way before, but yeah, Brad Wishon 20:35 We try to do that. But that's not fair to God. Anyway, and when I moved to St. Louis a few years ago, someone who lived in the same area I'm from invited me to MCC (Okay.) I went, and I walked in, and I knew I was home. I knew I was somewhere where I was loved for who I am, not for what I could pretend I'm not. Charles Koehler 21:03 It sounds like you found that just to be a very, very affirming type of experience. What sort of background might a person who is interested in becoming more directly involved with MCC maybe expect to have? Barb Eufinger 21:20 Well, I think one thing Bradley should mention is that he was a pastor in a previous life. He didn't just decide to come to MCC and was, you know, decided to be a preacher one day. Charles Koehler 21:32 Okay, I would think that you probably would have some sort of background. Brad Wishon 21:37 Oh, yes. Charles Koehler 21:37 Okay, could you talk a little bit about that? Brad Wishon 21:40 Okay, sorry, no, I've pastored one of the church. I was assistant pastor of three different churches, all in Missouri. I was I studied for the ministry from I started studying at a very young age. I always knew what I wanted to do. I started studying at the time. I was 12 years old. (My gosh.) Yeah, preparing for the ministry, and and I went ahead with that, and realized at well, after being thrown out of my previous church, I realized that this was like you needed. Charles Koehler 22:10 You followed in the footsteps of triparian, in a sense. Brad Wishon 22:14 I would say, probably 70% of all the clergy in MCC have been thrown out of their churches. Brad Wishon 22:21 So Brad Wishon 22:23 Very similar stories to tell. Barb Eufinger 22:25 We recycle very well, Charles Koehler 22:27 [Laughs.] very aptly put in this day of conservation and recycling, it's good to find additional very valuable uses of potential, and it sounds like that's what's happening here in St Louis. What are people most surprised about when they when they attend MCC or come to MCC for the first time? Because I'm sure that we've peaked a lot of curiosity from our listeners out there. What sort of things might they be surprised about? Barb Eufinger 23:02 The great divergence of people, the great variety, whatever your stereotypes are of the gay person, we can we can show you (laughing) because we can show you everything else. Our congregation goes from the very youngest to the elderly, every color, every profession, every kind of background. It's it's very much the way a church should be, open to everyone, Charles Koehler 23:35 Truly representative of the community as as a whole. (Yes.) Anything else you'd want to add to that? Brad Wishon 23:41 I've heard a lot of different things when people first leave from "Wow, this really is a church!" Charles Koehler 23:49 Coming there and expecting something other than (Yeah, yeah.) a legitimate church Brad Wishon 23:54 (during those) The most probably the most common is, "I have never felt so loved." Charles Koehler 24:01 That sounds very, very affirming. (Yeah.) that's That's great. Any any closing thoughts that either of you you have that you'd like to share from any personal experiences that you've had as part of MCC? Barb Eufinger 24:16 A gratifying kind of outreach that we haven't mentioned is to the rest of the world. Due to calls we have gotten at MCC we have been able to go to other churches, discussion groups, college sociology classes, as openly gay people, because people want to know there's an openness that's that's developing. People asking questions, not just turning away. We want to know. We're having to deal with this. Now we find out that yes, homosexuality is right next door, or it is in our family, too, Charles Koehler 24:55 In spite of the statistics that I've always been there 10% and that hasn't really changed. Barb Eufinger 25:00 And that's that makes me … Charles Koehler 25:01 It's becoming real. Barb Eufinger 25:02 feel very good that there's this, this asking, now, "What can you tell us?" You know, we want to know more. We want to understand. Charles Koehler 25:11 Brad, how about you? Brad Wishon 25:13 Um, I guess if there's anything from my own experiences, that is to never short change the idea that you have value. You were created by God. You are the way you are. Don't ever let anyone tell you that you're not worthwhile, because it's not true. Charles Koehler 25:31 Everyone has value intrinsically as a human being, Brad Wishon 25:35 And God loves you just like you are. Barb Eufinger 25:38 Amen. Charles Koehler 25:39 Amen. Well, Brad and Barb, it's it's been great having you with us today, and I'm sure that on this early Sunday morning that the two of you have given many of our listeners something additional to think about, and they might want to take those thoughts along with them as they attend the church or perhaps synagogue or temple of their of their choice, and reflect on some of the things that have been saying. And if our listeners would like to know more about Metropolitan Community Church, they can call MCC of Greater St Louis at 231-9100, that's 231-9100, and again, services and MCC St. Louis are on Sunday at 11 o'clock and at seven o'clock, and then on Wednesdays at 7pm and MCC is located at 1120 Dolman in the city. We're happy that MCC is an important part of our St. Louis community. Until next week, this has been Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports. Tune us in again, same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai