Charles Koehler 0:03 I'm Charles Koheler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. It's been over four years since the organization, Privacy Rights Education Project or PREP began in St. Louis, but since that time, PREP has grown into a major force for promoting local and statewide political and social change. With us today is Brad Smith, administrative coordinator for PREP and Carrie Oderizzi, member of PREP legislative committee and also a PREP activist. Good morning and welcome to Lambda Reports. (Thank you.) I think there's probably no organization in St. Louis that's gained more support for the lesbian and gay community than PREP has. You've received support from mainstream religious organizations and repeated supportive editorials from the St. Louis Post Dispatch. How did, how did PREP get to that point? Brad Smith 1:01 I believe, Charles, that any time a group of people are discriminated against because of their own intimacy, you a result of that is going to be extreme problems and frustrations. And not only do people in the gay and lesbian community become angered and frustrated about being discriminated because of their sexual orientation, but there are a whole series of organizations which have taken up not only our calls, but the whole general cause of privacy. Folks are outraged at the the amount of discrimination, about the unfairness of the existence of a law which criminalizes our own love, they are outraged about a whole span of privacy issues, and that alone, what the organization stands for has attracted a large number of people. Charles Koehler 1:58 I think that that, as you said, that the whole issue of the laws that are in the books raise raises the whole question as to what purpose, what place the government has in a person's intimate decisions that they have make with another person, Whether or not the person is heterosexual, homosexual, whatever. That. I think it raises a number of questions in people's minds. I think that that might be it. Could you tell us then, who started PREP? How did it start out? Carol Oderizzi 2:37 Well, PREP started in, actually, in 1986 as a result of the Hardwick decision, which was a Supreme Court decision of Hardwick versus Bowers, which the Supreme Court upheld Georgia's law to criminalize sexual behavior between adults. Now the Georgia law does not criminalize only homosexual activity. It criminalizes heterosexual sodomy at the same time. Charles Koehler 2:59 I'm sure that had a number of people in an uproar. Carol Oderizzi 3:02 Yes, it was extremely people were outraged at that time. Also, shortly thereafter, Missouri Supreme Court also upheld Missouri's statute against homosexual sexual activity. Charles Koehler 3:13 Now let's, let's talk just a moment about that, that law. I don't know if you have it memorized or whatever, but, but when I had asked in the past for some of the St. Louis City or County police to be on this program, they for one reason or another, weren't available, one of the questions I was going to ask them to do is just to let our listeners know what the law is, since they're not able to be for whatever reason, to let us know. Maybe you could share with us what this law is and what it says. Carol Oderizzi 3:44 Well, basically, what this law is is one portion, section three of Missouri sexual misconduct laws, And section three states that any sexual behavior, even in the privacy of an adult's own home, between individuals of the same sex, is illegal. It's a misdemeanor. Can be up to $1,000 fine and a year in jail. Charles Koehler 4:05 So this is a real law. This is not Carol Oderizzi 4:07 It's a real law. It's written on the books. It's considered deviant sexual behavior, okay? Charles Koehler 4:11 And of course, this does not apply Carol Oderizzi 4:13 does not apply to heterosexual Charles Koehler 4:15 the exact same behavior, the exact same behavior between persons of different sex, is completely legal, no restrictions whatsoever. It's the only reason is that it's between persons of the same sex. Carol Oderizzi 4:18 Between same sex, correct. And many people are not aware that that law is even on the books. Charles Koehler 4:30 And it is enforceable too. Carol Oderizzi 4:33 It is enforceable, and it's used. It's used a lot. The situation in the park is one of the big prime examples of where attempted sexual misconduct is used several times. Brad Smith 4:44 Yes, some other implications of the law are that the laws are used to remove children from the custody of their gay and lesbian parents, as well as the same laws are used to discharge lesbian and gay military personnel for no reason other than their sexual orientation. Charles Koehler 5:00 Now, how can a law like this cause a child to be removed from their their own parent? Is it because, because this law is on the book, then that means the the parent is de facto a criminal that so in other words, that's what it's the implication is, and for the same reason, then, since a person is a de facto criminal, then they cannot serve in the military. Brad Smith 5:29 That's right. Charles Koehler 5:29 Same reasoning is used, right? Is there? Is there any other group of people that you're aware of that the government regulates their sexual, private, consensual, adult, sexual behavior. Is there any other one that you're aware of Brad Smith 5:43 Well as before, Carrie was saying certain states have a sodomy law, which is not the exact same thing as a sexual misconduct law, as in Missouri, but certain states do have a sodomy law, which criminalizes certain behaviors between heterosexual partners as well as homosexual partners. Charles Koehler 6:01 Even if they're married. Brad Smith 6:02 Even if that marriage license exists. Charles Koehler 6:05 Okay, but in Missouri, we're looking at Missouri it only applies to same sex partners, Carol Oderizzi 6:10 Correct. Charles Koehler 6:10 If we talk a little bit more about the sexual misconduct law, what are some of the other implications of it? Carol Oderizzi 6:23 And now that one of the other ones in that many people in their jobs and in their employment either sign and/or agree, just by the way of personnel policies that you will not engage in any illegal behavior. If push would come to shove in many areas of employment, this is considered illegal behavior, therefore you're engaging and can be fired because of this law on the books. Charles Koehler 6:44 And what person, what recourse would that person have? Carol Oderizzi 6:47 Right now, it would just have to be proved. You'd have to go through the judicial system, and this law is on the books, so you don't have Charles Koehler 6:55 much recourse at all. Carol Oderizzi 6:56 Much recourse. Charles Koehler 6:57 So this, this law very clearly, in a number of different ways, discriminates against person because they are gay or lesbian. And that's, that's it. That's, that's rather a sobering thought, Carol Oderizzi 7:12 Very. Brad Smith 7:13 It's an outraging thought, and I believe that is serves as the catalyst and the stimulus which has caused so many gay and lesbian persons to take to the streets, to claim their own identity, to come out of the closets, which is a phrase that we so frequently use because they are simply outraged that their own love is criminalized. Charles Koehler 7:39 Again, talking about Carol Oderizzi 7:40 your own home Charles Koehler 7:40 in between consenting adults. We're not talking about anything. Charles Koehler 7:42 We're not talking about rape, we're not talking about the indecent exposure laws. We're not talking about child those are completely outside of what we're talking about here. Brad Smith 7:54 Absolutely,the repeal of these laws will not remove sanctions against non-consensual public or commercial sex, nor will sodomy laws or sexual misconduct laws repeal removal of laws prohibiting sex with minors. We are simply asking for a repeal of a law which criminalizes same sex adult consenting activity. Charles Koehler 8:28 in the privacy Brad Smith 8:28 of one's own home. Charles Koehler 8:29 Okay, you're asking for the same same restriction, same stipulations to apply for heterosexuals and homosexuals as applied to heterosexuals. Brad Smith 8:34 Absolutely. Carol Oderizzi 8:34 Yeah, correct, Charles Koehler 8:34 plain and simple, Brad Smith 8:35 Right. When you look at the Kinsey Report, when you look at the studies being done by the American Medical Association, American American Psychological Associations, gay and lesbian orientation is, it has been concluded as a result of a series of genetic and hormonal interactions that have occurred during the development of the child. And if that considering these reports have much validity, the natural child development call allows for one's orientation to be established as of birth, and so discriminating and setting laws against a group of people because of their natural behavior is, it's criminal, it's appalling. And then on top of that, there's an added layer, or there's an added dimension that the state or the federal government is allowed to make decisions for us, which should be our own private, personal decisions. So there are two layers to this issue, the whole issue of privacy and the whole issue of invadin' one's own natural, biological inclination. Charles Koehler 10:04 Okay, just as (by law) by law, just as it is natural for some people to be right-handed or left-handed, right, it has about the same Carol Oderizzi 10:11 There's not as much choice in that as there is. I mean, this is the same kind of an issue. Charles Koehler 10:15 Exactly. We've talked a lot about the sexual misconduct law and some of the implications that it has, certainly PREP is, is the focus is on issues. In addition to that, could be, could we talk a little bit about those other issues? Some of the ones coming up. Carol Oderizzi 10:35 There are, basically, we work real hard on just general privacy issues, and any bills that are in the legislature that would deal with privacy issues, one being the health care surrogate bill, which says that you can name any individual to make health care decisions for you if you are incapacitated. Currently, there is no law on the books. It has to be blood relatives, which is against what gays and lesbians are all about to require that your family is the only people that can make health care decisions. Healthcare decisions for you, negates the fact that most people would have a lover or someone else of their choosing, Charles Koehler 11:07 And this should be of importance, not only to lesbians and gays, but also persons who are single that are completely heterosexual. That means that they have absolutely no choice in who makes healthcare decisions for them. If they're incapacitated, exactly it has to be, by law, their Carol Oderizzi 11:23 blood relative. Charles Koehler 11:24 Blood relatives. So they also should be have definitely a vested interest. (Right.) And anyone who's concerned about fairness … Carol Oderizzi 11:24 It's about right to choose who you want to make those kinds of decisions. So those kinds of laws we're working on the legislative committee is the big one right now, is the hate crime statistics bill. Charles Koehler 11:34 Talk a little bit about that. Carol Oderizzi 11:38 We're trying to get sexual orientation included in the hate crimes. Charles Koehler 11:45 What is hate crimes? And what is the hate crime statistic bill all about, for listeners that don't know the first thing at all about what is a hate crime? Brad Smith 11:53 Well, a hate crime is simply an act that is motivated based on bigotry or bias or ignorance or hatred, simple hatred, and we have seen in the last couple of years an increase in the documented, the documented number of cases of hate crimes committed against gays and lesbians. Just last year, at the showing of The Normal Heart, a play about AIDS that was shown in Springfield there, there was a controversy that resulted that was initiated by Jean Dixon representative, Jean Dixon, and as a result of some of her vicious initiatives in trying to get that play not to be shown at the University of purson, a student who was associated with the house with the play, his house was burned down as well last year a man by the name of Clifford Moyers, who is a writer with a Columbia newspaper, was thrown through a plate glass window at a Denny's simply because he was discussing gay and lesbian issues at the table where he was seated. There have been cross burnings that have occurred recently. There have been bomb threats charges. Charles Koehler 13:20 One interesting thing I think about the the the cross burning that was brought up is that there the person who burned the cross couldn't really be prosecuted for anything other than public littering, I believe, because it was directed against gay men, and that wasn't covered by any sort of legislation. So, Brad Smith 13:41 Absolutely, like this is a what you were asking earlier, Charles. Again, gays and lesbians in this state are criminalized. So how are you going to prosecute one who perpetuates a crime against a category or a group of people who are not even protected by the state. Charles Koehler 14:01 And by this, the state declares them just because they happen to be the way they are, de facto criminals, Brad Smith 14:08 absolutely correct. Charles Koehler 14:10 Yeah, and that's something I think most of our listeners don't really realize that the full impact is that the state of Missouri has declared, in essence, lesbians and gays unless they are celibate for the entire life. And I think this is the only class of people that the state mandates that they remain celibate for life. Carol Oderizzi 14:30 If you want to remain legal, Charles Koehler 14:31 if you remember when, if you unless you're a celibate for life, then you are a de facto criminal, Brad Smith 14:37 Right, (Correct.) And this does feed the state, therefore feeds into the perpetuation of hate crimes because they have therefore gone along with adding a dimension onto this category of people in our society, there have been some extremely vicious crimes in the past. Charles, in 1985 two St. Louis public school teachers were brutally murdered in their own home. And so many people in talk shows that I've heard before bring up on the radio, well, gays and lesbians are out there in the streets trying to push their issues, trying to throw their sexuality onto us, throw it in our faces and throw it, throw that sexuality into our faces. And I just feel that is a totally looking at the evidence of the number of hate crimes that have occurred in the recent past, that concern is totally invalid. We are having to take to the streets, and we are having to discuss these issues simply because there are criminal acts being committed against us. Charles Koehler 15:54 One, I think it's real important that our listeners know about 19 I believe it's 1987 Federal Department of Justice study, right? FBI study, this is not done by any lesbian or gay funding. This is from our federal government, and it was under the Reagan administration. FBI study, Department of Justice study that concluded that the group, the two groups, that are most likely to experience hate related crimes, are Asian Americans and gay men. That is the government's own conclusion. This is not from, Carol Oderizzi 16:27 not from a gay and lesbian Charles Koehler 16:29 group at all, okay, right? And since that time, there have been a documented increase of hate related crimes against lesbians and gays. Another conclusion that the study came to is that the majority of these crimes that are committed against lesbians or gays are unreported because of fear of retribution. So again, we're only seeing the tip of the mic. Carol Oderizzi 16:51 This is just a small percentage of what's really out there. Charles Koehler 16:54 and this is the government's own words. This isn't something that lesbians or gays are saying, just reporting what the government is saying. Carol Oderizzi 16:59 Exactly, which is when the federal hate crime statistics bill went into action, sexual orientation was included. It is included in the federal bill as one of the groups of people to start statistic recording on. And we're working on trying to get sexual orientation included in the state hate crimes bill Charles Koehler 17:18 in Missouri. Carol Oderizzi 17:18 In Missouri. Charles Koehler 17:19 Now, why should it be? Why is it necessary to be included in the Missouri bill? If it's included in the federal level. Brad Smith 17:25 I would simply say that the the creation of a hate crime statistics keeping bill on the state level will create a bank into which statistics can be deposited. So in the federal level bill will mandate the the allowance of the statistics to be kept on a federal level so that the state statistics can be fed into the federal system, but for us in this state to create stiffer penalties in the long run, for those criminals who commit crimes bait based on bias and bigotry, there must be a state system which monitors the number of crimes that are being created. Charles Koehler 18:09 Okay. So first of all, you have to collect the statistics. That's the important starting point, right? And if something is not reported as occurring, then for all intents and purposes, it Carol Oderizzi 18:19 laws will not be made to protect that Charles Koehler 18:20 and it never happened, Carol Oderizzi 18:21 Right. And this is not creating laws to engage in any sort of punishment or misdemeanors or felonies against people. This is simply statistics only to take down the numbers. And is this really a group that is discriminated against? And therefore, what will we do accordingly? Charles Koehler 18:40 Now we've been talking, of course, a lot about the hate crime statistics bill as it affects lesbians gays, but it's certainly the bill that is proposed by PREP does not only include lesbians or gays, but it also includes a number of other groups of people. Maybe you can go through some of them, right? Brad Smith 19:00 The bill that was put forth by the Anti-Defamation League last year only included the protected categories of race, religion, color and ethnic origin. During our 1990 January Lobby Day on the sexual misconduct law, we found out that this legislation was being introduced that only included those four categories, so we immediately found out about the bill. We decided, as a group, other categories which there has been proven discrimination against to be included in the bill. And these categories are age, gender, disability and sexual orientation. So what we're trying to do this year, Charles, is create a bill that is more inclusive, that includes a total of eight categories. Brad Smith 19:50 much more like the federal bill. The federal bill includes those categories. KRJY Announcer 20:00 KRJY St. Louis. Charles Koehler 20:02 So in other words, you're not asking for anything that the federal bill doesn't doesn't include. You're asking it for, in essence, for the state bill to mirror the Carol Oderizzi 20:11 Yeah, most of the language will be very similar to the federal bill. It's interesting, the City of St Louis has a city bias crime bill that is extremely inclusive and has been claimed as a model hate crime statistics bill for cities and states nationwide. And so the City of St Louis has a bill that is all inclusive, that includes that we're looking to get that as a part of the state bill also. Charles Koehler 20:38 Great, great. Can we talk a little bit more about some of the other activities that prep is involved with and some of the the legislation, some of the concerns focus that PrEP has? Carol Oderizzi 20:42 Some of our some of the other issues that we do work on, depending on what's going on in the legislature or what's going on in just some of the local city ordinances, we work toward cohabitation ordinances, or work against cohabitation ordinances, depending on what they are, which determines how many people or how many related people can be in the same household. We work on those kinds of things. Charles Koehler 21:10 Case in point with the I think, most common, most famous one was the Ladue issue, where a opposite sex couple, a man and a woman, were not allowed to live in the same house, even though they were, well, it's important or not. They were very respectable people. They had families, but they were not allowed to live there because they were not married, and so they could not so we're talking about, again, issues that not only affect the lesbian and gay community, but (right) everyone. Carol Oderizzi 21:38 But yes, it's again, privacy in general, is why, which is why prep is not made up of an organization simply of lesbians and gays. Charles Koehler 21:46 I think that's a very important point to bring up Carol Oderizzi 21:48 these are people, Charles Koehler 21:49 By no means are we talking only about lesbians and gays involved into the prep, Carol Oderizzi 21:53 Right. There are heterosexuals, homosexuals, people interested in privacy issues and what are Charles Koehler 21:59 fairness Carol Oderizzi 22:00 and keeping the government out of places they don't belong. Brad Smith 22:04 I mean, some other issues that that we are working on are drug testing legislation. We are presently forming a policy about, around drug testing. There are some very disturbing implications of drug testing, where those tests can be used on a, on a mother, to take that mother's child away from the mother, instead of providing certain social services for the mother. So we are extremely disturbed about that invasion of privacy. There are also censorship legislation pieces that we work on, and the government, as we know, has a habit of collecting information on people's reading habits and viewing habits, and we are very disturbed about those invasions of privacy. So Charles, there are a whole series, a whole span of privacy issues that this group is involved in. Carol Oderizzi 23:05 Anonymous testing for AIDS, those kinds of bills, that kind of legislation, wiretapping. In the past, we've been worked on and worked real hard for, Brad Smith 23:15 and we have been intricately involved in the pro-choice movement because we believe that a woman ought to have the freedom to make personal, private decisions on her own body. It's as simple as that. So you can imagine, I mean this, that one issue is at the very crux of privacy rights. Charles Koehler 23:15 I think, once again, it's significant. To mention that PREP has received repeated support from the St. Louis Post Dispatch and has been very, very supportive of some of the very positive work that PEEP has done in the past. Carol Oderizzi 23:58 We have someone who works real hard chairing the media and public relations component of PREP, and that's also one of our main purposes, is education, educating the people of Missouri as to what's going on, what really is on the books, what really is used. The majority of people did not even know there was a misconduct law is one case in point, but that even other issues involving privacy, making people aware of that, breaking down some of the stereotypes, as far as gays and lesbians go, we are we do a lot of education work in the community and statewide that we're working real hard on. Charles Koehler 24:36 I understand that the PREP is now a nonprofit incorporated organization and has that meant any changes for PREP? Brad Smith 24:44 Not, not any changes in the extreme. I mean, we worked on a steering committee basis, where the heads of our four committees, the legislative committee, the media committee, the fundraising committee and the repeal campaign committee came together and processed some of the information that the group as a whole had put forth. We have just changed the name of that steering committee now to a board, (Okay.) so it's the same type of dynamics that are going on in the groups, power sharing, grassroots organization, we just use different terminology. Charles Koehler 25:24 Okay. And it seems with that, that you're able to do more from a legal standpoint, etc, and keep the federal government happy with reporting and funding and get funding. Speaking of which, I understand that that PREP is always in need of contributions, and again, it is a nonprofit incorporated organization, and that there's some fundraising involved, and I understand that there's an important fundraising activity coming up later on today. As a matter of fact, could you tell us a little bit about it? Brad Smith 25:51 Absolutely PREP today is sponsoring a showing of He's Having Her Baby. This is a play by Joan Lipkin, and it's a satirical pro-choice play which centers around role reversal, where a teenage boy becomes pregnant pregnant, and has to experience the ins and outs of pregnancy. Now this is showing at the Saint Marcus church this afternoon, and tickets can be purchased at Left Bank Books, Our World Too, and Good Works. Charles Koehler 26:22 Okay? And about what time is the show time on that Brad Smith 26:25 it's at three o'clock, Charles Koehler 26:27 three o'clock. So make your plans now for activity later on. And I understand there's ongoing fundraising, Carol Oderizzi 26:34 There's ongoing fundraisers, movies and probably some more coming up in December, sponsoring some movies at the Tivoli. And lots of ongoing fundraising, grant solicitation, Brad Smith 26:44 Right. We have had some interesting pledge initiatives lately. We have started a pledge drive to get more support for the organization so that all the administrative work that we are having to process in order to keep up with these privacy issues, and there are lots of issues, and there's a lot of administrative work that this administrative work can be handled. Charles, we have recently received a grant from the threshold foundation in San Francisco, California. The grant has beefed up the income roles of PREP, tremendously, and we could, I mean, this money is going to translate into the strength of the organization, tremendously. (Great.) Carol Oderizzi 27:34 This organization is volunteer based solely, and so people are doing all of this work on their own time because of their own beliefs. Charles Koehler 27:41 And they have some very committed members. I understand that the membership is really grown recently, and I'm sure it'll continue to grow. It's a neighborhood of about 130 people or so, (that's right,) and again, broad-based coalition of people that are concerned with privacy rights and fairness and fairness to human beings. Brad Smith 28:01 Right. One of the most exciting things we've been able to do is to open up an office at the World Community Center at 438 North Skinker, and we now again, are able to staff one person as an administrative coordinator in that house, and he's the one who's speaking. I'm a fortunate one. Charles Koehler 28:19 Brad and Carrie. That's all the time we have. Thanks for being with us and all the good work that PREP does to help make our community a better and a safer place to live in. If you our listeners would like to learn more about PREP, that's the Privacy Rights Education Project, just call weekdays at 353-7735, that's 353-7735, or you can write PREP at Post Office Box, 24106, St Louis, Missouri, 63130, This has been Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports, tune us in again next week. Same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai