Charles Koehler 0:02 I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. I'm sure all of our listeners have tuned into a program or heard or seen something that upset them because it was inaccurate, degrading or just an outright lie about lesbians and gays. When you hear there or see this kind of abuse and distortion of truth, what can you do? To talk about this topic and how it affects lesbians and gays is Karen Schwartz, director of Public Affairs of GLAAD, New York. It's a nationwide organization that means Gays and Lesbians Alliance Against Defamation. Karen is joining us from New York. Good morning, Karen, and welcome to Lambda Reports. Karen Schwartz 0:50 Thank you. Good morning to you. Charles Koehler 0:53 Justa what is GLAAD and how did it get started? Karen Schwartz 0:57 Well, we were started by a group of writers, including Vito Russo, who you probably know, died recently, and there were writers who were concerned about how misreporting of the AIDS epidemic was being used to stand the flames of bigotry, generally. It was formed in 1985 and we've grown tremendously. Our New York office has five staff people, and we have chapters or chapters in formation in 1350s across the country at the moment, with a staff person also located in Los Angeles. Charles Koehler 1:31 Great, great. Well, before we go any further, let's listen to a short tape that was prepared by GLAAD. It features playwright Harvey Fierstein and and has some actual examples taking off the air from programs that were done around the country. Some of what you're about to hear is rather strong, I should warn our listeners, and it in no way reflects the policies or opinions of this station or its management. So here we go. Harvey Fierstein 1:59 This is Harvey Fierstein. I want to thank you for sitting down and listening to this tape. What you're about to hear are actual recordings taken from radio and television broadcasts of defamatory statements made about gay men and lesbians. Many of these statements will offend and disturb you, but it's important that we listen to them together, just as it's important that we do something about them. Talk Show Host 2:25 Steve. Bob Grant, here you're on WABC, hello. Steve is not there. Steve got tired. David. Hello. David got tired. Maybe Steve and David got tired together. Maybe they'll croak together. Harvey Fierstein 2:42 Defamation as heard on radio and television. Talk Show Host 2:45 I think a decent argument can be made that homosexuality is probably the worst possible if you would sin or socially disruptive event that a person can commit. Harvey Fierstein 2:57 The expression of evil is malicious intent. Talk Show Host 3:00 It is a perversion. You want to tell me that homosexuality is not a perversion, Harvey Fierstein 3:06 Open, deliberate and forceful degradation. Talk Show Host 3:10 You know, they sort of put a little flag on the virus and said, gangway, we're coming through, and you're not going to be allowed to do anything to stop it, because it's our civil right to spread it. Harvey Fierstein 3:18 Gross verbal abuse. Talk Show Host 3:20 You're not capable of looking at yourself in the mirror and saying, I am a fact, I am a queer, I am a perverted individual. Harvey Fierstein 3:31 This is Harvey Fierstein. Talk Show Host 3:33 One of my listeners came up with a much better idea. Called them SAD, which means sexual aids distributors, Harvey Fierstein 3:41 and that is defamation. Charles Koehler 3:46 So we've just heard some examples that were taken from programs off of other radio stations from around the country, and once again, I'd like to remind our listeners that what they've just heard in no way reflects the policies or opinions of this radio station, arts management. Do you find that to be common across the country, this sort of defamation that's going on? Karen Schwartz 4:11 Yeah, I think most people don't realize to what extent, especially in the radio stations, that 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, that somewhere in your city, somebody's probably on the radio, has a platform, and is using it to spread some kind of anti gay bigotry or AIDS and misinformation. So it's extremely common. The first clip you heard there was from New York City's most popular talk show, Bob Grant, very highly rated. And he does. He pulls that kind of homophobic vitriolic language all the time. Charles Koehler 4:50 Well, aren't there any federal or FCC limits on what can be said in this regard? Karen Schwartz 4:55 Well, there are a couple different points to make. I mean it this is something that really. Does vary from city to city, to what extent you may be able to go to your local government for help in San Francisco, in fact, some activists have used that as a ploy in terms of working with radio stations to tone them down. We have not pursued that because, partly because we can't. In New York, our local laws don't really provide for protection from this kind of assault, although they do from other kinds. But additionally, we're very careful about not going to government to protest speech in most cases, because that reeks of censorship. And as everyone knows, gays and lesbians are most are the most frequent victims of a heavy censorship policy. It's our lives that are generally censored out of the media, and so we're careful to use this, not to use this tactic, which is often used against our own community. Charles Koehler 5:57 So in other words, the whole issue of censorship is a sword that cuts both ways. And just as censorship can be seen by some to prevent this type of verbal abuse on the air, it also can and in some cases has kept the views of lesbians and gays from being expressed in and I might say, expressed in a much less damaging and much much less evil way. Karen Schwartz 6:26 Yeah. I mean, we're censored for simply telling the truth. But that's not to say that we don't respond. We respond by making but what we respond first of all by talking with the radio stations and pointing out that their standards of broadcast acceptability for the gay and lesbian community should be brought in line with their standards of broadcast acceptability for vitriolic or bigoted statements against other communities. Very often, there's a double standard there, and the second thing we do is we educate stations about the connection between these kinds of homophobic, apparently homophobic statements and anti gay violence. And you know, we tell them, the blood is on your hands when you air that kind of garbage and someone beaten up on the street, you you were partly responsible for that, and that usually will bring them into some level of common ground where we can then discuss solutions. And the third thing we do is we argue for balance, where it's just an opinion that's being expressed that conservative and anti gay, but but without a call for violence, we'll make an argument that, well, you don't have any openly gay and lesbian spokespersons on your station to balance this. And so what can we do to ensure that you get some? Charles Koehler 7:48 Great. Well, it sounds like that's a very, very strong and well thought out approach. And I might add right now that I I'd like to to thank the station here at KRJY for their support of the program Lambda reports. The management has been extremely supportive of the whole concept of what we've been doing in the program. So I'll throw that in for what it's worth at this point. But let's get back to the whole issue of censorship. Once again, some people might say, Well, what's wrong with telling a few jokes or making making a few comments? Where do you draw the line? Karen Schwartz 8:28 Well, just to back up for a moment sure you know there's nothing intrinsically wrong with telling a joke or making an off color comment. The problem is that gays and lesbians are largely invisible in the media were very rarely represented accurately, positively or sympathetically, and so the when we are portrayed in the one or two segments on a given program is being, say, a child molester, one of the other negative stereotypes, the tendency of the general public to over-generalize about that depiction to the entire community, is is reinforced that those, those few depictions, when they're also negative, reinforce the notion that we're uniformly evil, perverted, whatever. So these negative depictions, in and of themselves, wouldn't be so bad if there wasn't such a lack of positive depictions of the gay and lesbian community. And the balance of debt the general public is getting is just does not reflect reality. Where we draw the line, in terms of where we say, you know, this is something that cannot go on the air, as opposed to this is something that needs balance, is that blatant AIDS misinformation, blatant distortion of the fact as they are known surrounding homosexuality and also calls for violence. I mean, I don't know if you're going to be playing it later, but there's one point where one of the commentators. On that tape tells, I think a lesbian to come down to his booth at City Hall. Charles Koehler 10:05 We'll be playing that as a matter of fact in just a second. Karen Schwartz 10:08 Okay, well, I won't spoil the surprise, but the point is that these very angry threats of violence against the gay and lesbian community have no place on the air. Charles Koehler 10:21 Well, at this point, why don't we listen to another short segment again? This has been prepared by GLAAD Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, and it features playwright Harvey Firestein, and has some actual examples taken off the air from programs from around the country. Some of what you're about to hear is rather strong, and it in no way reflects the policies or opinions of this station arts management. Speaker 1 10:56 There are certain kinds of things such as murder and I would, I would contend such as homosexual acts that absolutely disqualify a person as being a responsible citizen. Talk Show Host 11:08 It's Dr Paul Cameron. We're going to take telephone calls with Dr Cameron right here and on WABC studio in just a moment. WABC talk radio time 25 minutes now, before four o'clock. Harvey Fierstein 11:19 On radio or television shows in the morning, afternoon or night. In cities and towns throughout the country, the public is fed a regular dose of anti gay commentary by bigots masquerading as experts, journalists and what are now known as shock jocks. In the name of ratings, we are ridiculed and defamed, and people who hate us are given a forum through which to peddle their lies in venom, day after day after day, it spills into the cars, living rooms and minds of men, women and children, and no minority is subjected to more media sanctioned defamation than gay men and lesbians. Talk Show Host 11:54 If there's anybody on the sidelines thinking that homosexuality is just a minor deviation from the norm, that story, that story, should convince even the dummies in the audience that we're talking about sick, sick, perverted people, right? I think so. Harvey Fierstein 12:19 Besides painting a distorted picture of our sexuality, these bigots present perverse theories about our lives designed to threaten ignorant listeners. Speaker 1 12:28 Most family men are not inclined to want to go and go and go, whereas a homosexual says, gee, if I can get paid to go to a new city and pick up a new trick here and a new trick that's that's appealing to them. Harvey Fierstein 12:40 They use their theories to justify and encourage discrimination. Talk Show Host 12:44 The discrimination, whatever it is, is based on, on the need for society in general to protect itself from the encroachment of a perverted, warped minority. If a person hates a homosexual, I think he has a right to hate whomever he wants to what are we going to do? Brainwash people, give them, give them a laser treatment to get rid of their hatred. They cannot discriminate. Oh yes, they can. If they if they don't want them teaching their children in school, they should be able to protect themselves from having a queer teach their children in school. Now, if they don't want them in in in their apartment, they should be able to keep them out of their apartment. Harvey Fierstein 13:26 They use the Bible to preach violence and hatred against us. Talk Show Host 13:30 in the Bible, let him read, and I don't think he has 20th Chapter, Leviticus, he talks about homosexuality in the Bible as condemnation, no, no, no, no. It goes more than condemnation. If you read the 20th chapter of it says you must kill the homosexual. Well, of course, it goes beyond that. It goes to a total retribution. That is why those cities were destroyed. Caller 13:59 You Bible thumping people are going to come after me for things that it is my right under this Constitution to do. Talk Show Host 14:05 Then you change the constitution and get rid of sickle votes like you. Caller 14:12 Yeah. And I can imagine the method. I can imagine the method. Harvey Fierstein 14:16 They even threaten gay calls with violence over the air. Talk Show Host 14:19 Wait till I get a hold of you. M'onna smash your head against the wall. I'm gonna knock some sense into you, Steve, I tell you what. Make the trip in. Come on up to the mobile unit. Will you. Punch your nose right down your throat. Harvey Fierstein 14:36 In their zeal to paint us as evil threats to society, they leap on AIDS as a weapon, confusing an already worried public and endangering our own right to exist. Speaker 1 14:47 I think they put a lot of pressure on it holds an old saying, the wheel that squeaks loudest gets the most grease. And with them, they have been shouting and most vociferous and demanding that AIDS be treated as a politically protected virus. I just cannot believe that with this AIDS crisis, which is, let's face it, a homosexual disease, that's what it is. This a homosexual disease, and yet they're looking for civil rights. I don't understand it. Talk Show Host 15:16 What do you think of this $3 billion we're supposed to spend on AIDS? Talk Show Host 15:20 What is the expenditure supposed to be on, since we have been told that there's no cure in sight, as matter of fact, one PhD biochemist, MD said it was impossible to cure AIDS. Do you know any normal people that have it. No, no, I know, and so why do us normal people have to pay for it? Good question. It's ridiculous. Harvey Fierstein 15:46 And anyone who calls in trying to defend us or defend themselves is denied the opportunity to speak. Talk Show Host 15:53 An insult to the vast majority of New Yorkers who do not have the perversion that you are afflicted with, Caller 16:01 which I don't regard as a perversion, sir, Talk Show Host 16:04 well, of course you wouldn't regard it as a perversion. You want to look in the mirror and say, I Julie am a dyke. I Julie am a sickle. I'm i Julie am a freak. You don't want to say that, Fred, you're on 70 7w. 77 WC. Hello. Rights. What you have no rights. I go for some perfume. I'm glad I don't know you personally, because I would avoid you like the plate. Harvey Fierstein 16:34 And so it goes, 24 hours a day, from Morton Downey Jr to Bob Grant to Howard Stern to DJs and program hosts all over the country, professional bigots who are heroes to their audience. Caller 16:47 Bob your name. Your name is Voltaire. Your name is Leonardo. Your name is Copernicus. I love you. God bless you. Keep up the good work. Caller 16:56 Everything you say, I keep screaming. Oh yes, yes, you're absolutely right. Oh my God, he's so right. Everything he's saying is so right. Harvey Fierstein 17:02 A character in Torch Song Trilogy is beaten to death in a public park by a gang of kids who grew up listening to that kind of hate at home and on the radio today, with AIDS, declining standards on radio and television stations and increased public tolerance for intolerance, it's an everyday occurrence, and you barely heard five minutes worth. Charles Koehler 17:24 I'd like to remind our listeners that what they've just heard is taken from radio programs from around the country and in no way reflects the policies or opinions of this station and arts management. We're talking with Karen Schwartz in New York from GLAAD, Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. Karen, can you give us some examples of TV programs? Records are radio programs that are objectionable? Karen Schwartz 17:57 Yeah, I just want to make a point sure that tape that you heard, we put it together about a year and a half ago, and I just want to make a point that in fact, while a lot of what you heard there was people using AIDS misinformation and in fears and anxiety of AIDS to attack and lash out at the gay community, what we're seeing now is different kinds of assault on gay and lesbian lives, and that is an assault by the right wing to silence, to silence any gay positive programming. Now, there have been some positive shows that have been on television, but typically gay and lesbian people are brought in to do sort of cameo roles as jokesters, perverts, child molesters, clowns or what have you. When we are represented sympathetically a number of organizations, including the American Family Association and Christian Leaders for Responsible Television, to right wing religious organizations pressure advertisers and get them to withdraw their funding. So that's the kind of assault that we're facing currently. Charles Koehler 19:11 Can you give us some specific examples of, let's say, TV programs that this has happened with? Karen Schwartz 19:18 Well, yeah, I mean, there's one that we just found out about today My Two Sons is going to be airing at some point, which I believe is about AIDS in the gay context. And we just got a report that from an advertising agent who happens to be gay that that one of the clients is pulling out of that of advertising on that program because of its content. We recently the Burger King ads that were taken out in papers all across the country affirming traditional family values were taken out by Burger King to avert a boycott by the American Family Association in Clear TV and one of the shows those two organizations were objecting to. Was an NBC mini-series based on Dominic Dunn's People Like Us, which had which, according to the AFA publications, were objectionable because, and I this is almost a direct quote, gay men were representative, sympathetic, sympathetic, understanding and friendly, and people who don't like gays were representatives cold and unfeeling. I mean, that was the basis for the objection to that program reality. Charles Koehler 20:28 They had problem with with reality Karen Schwartz 20:31 exactly. I mean, someone here is fond of saying what the American Family Association is trying to do is repeal the 20th century basically put the blinders on the realities of modern American life. Charles Koehler 20:44 That and that reality for some of our less enlightened listeners, is that approximately one in 10 people out there happens to be lesbian or gay. Karen Schwartz 20:54 That's right. And other shows that have come under attack include Heartbeat, which is no longer on the air featured the only recurring lesbian character in recent times, and it was the target of a boycott advertising campaign, the Rock Hudson mini series or not mini series, special that they that they did, and also 30 Something when they did an episode in which two men were depicted sitting side by side in bed, one smoking a cigarette. A number of advertisers were targeted by the by these right wing groups, and some, in fact, pulled out, costing, costing ABC a loss of $1.5 million in advertising revenue. Charles Koehler 21:36 And I understand that that particular episode, which showed no sexual interaction at all, was just two men talking with each other, was one of the only episodes of 30 something that was not rebroadcast. Karen Schwartz 21:54 That's correct, four episodes were not rebroadcast during the summer rerun schedule, and that was one of them. And what's kind of ironic to us is that a number of episodes on other programs and stations that we had objected to for their negative stereotyping of other programs were rerun. So it's okay to run rerun programs that depict gays in negative ways, but it's not okay to rerun programs that depict us positively. Charles Koehler 22:20 Are there? Are there any glimmers of hope on the horizon? Are there? Are there any positive programs that you can cite Karen Schwartz 22:26 Absolutely, but it's coming in a back door kind of way. What we're seeing is an increase in the number of episodic representations of gay people on television programs. That is an episode of a weekly television program, bringing in a synthetic gay character for one series. And I think that this may be, what we may be seeing is the beginning of a rebellion by people in Hollywood to censorship tactics of the right wing. Putting a reoccurring gay character really opens you up to a to a long term advertising campaign by the right wing. Shows that just introduce a gay character for one segment, and may or may not make a promise to bring them back, are much less vulnerable. Charles Koehler 23:07 Well, what about our listeners there that might object to homosexuality on religious grounds? Any thought on that, that approach? Karen Schwartz 23:15 Well, I mean, there's freedom of religion in our country, and you can always turn the channel if something is offensive to you, without necessarily making it impossible for somebody else to whom the show may be meaningful to have access to it. So I think there's there's room for all kinds of tastes and desires. But once again, I think the most important thing that we're talking about here is that the reality of gay and lesbian lives. It's not being depicted on television, on television or anywhere else in the media, and it's not, you know, imagined storyline we're talking about here. We're talking about a level of reality, and no amount of religious moralizing can erase that fact, Charles Koehler 23:57 it's been around from since time again and will be into the foreseeable future. Karen Schwartz 24:03 That's correct. I mean, when you think about how much you watch on television that you object to, I mean, there's just so much to object to on television, but you can always flip the channel. Charles Koehler 24:11 Exactly. What would your what would you recommend that our listeners do who's, who finds something that's offensive on in advertising, on radio, television or in print? What would you recommend that they do? Karen Schwartz 24:28 Well, we're only five staff people here with lots of volunteers, so if people see things that are offensive to them, if they can provide us with a tape or a transcript or even a written letter documenting what it was that they found offensive, and also themselves write a letter complaining to the offending sponsor of the program. That's useful, but we like to get that information from people, preferably in hard copy form, and then we will help on a national level, mobilize a response to it. It's equally important that when people see something that they like that is sympathetic to gay people, that they respond enthusiastically to it and and let these media outlets know that there's a huge amount of support for these kinds of positive depictions that the same people who buy VCRs and cars and whatever else are advertised on television also appreciate these kinds of programs. Charles Koehler 25:26 Great, great. What? What can you give us as an example is getting back to different forms of media of some some recording, some audio recordings, records, CDs that also recently have been portraying lesbians and gays in less than favorable light. Karen Schwartz 25:48 Well, I think virtually every single heavy metal band that has come out within the last two years has managed to throw homophobic lyrics someplace in the course of a record. May be part of your rite of passage into popularity to do that. And some big examples there are Guns and Roses using the word faggot on the front cover of their album. The the comedian who people think of who has has ties with the has with the heavy metal community is Sam Kinison, who uses faggot on his album, on his comedy album, quite frequently, and propagates a theory that AIDS was was became an epidemic because gay men went to Africa and had sex with monkeys. So this is the level of hatred that exists in the entertainment industry and its exposure to the young population is tremendous. I mean, through these best selling albums, Charles Koehler 26:52 I understand that something rather current has come up regarding Madonna. A Madonna video and MTV. Could you fill us in a little bit on Karen Schwartz 27:01 Oh, well, this isn't the situation of defamation by a star. This is a situation and with something which may potentially be gay positive, okay, not have an opportunity to be heard or seen. Now, I have to say, I haven't seen this video, okay, but according to The New York Times yesterday, Charles Koehler 27:17 and this has just been published, so we're just going on, yeah, very current information. Karen Schwartz 27:21 Breaking story, okay, Madonna has done a video for her song, justify my love. And according to the Times, the video includes voyeurs and female and male bisexuality, cross dressing, wild sadomasochism and multiple partners. And MTV has refused to broadcast this video, which is possibly the first time they've ever done that, at least in Madonna, it is on the basis of content. And as people are pointing out, what you see on MTV is often a lot worse than anything that was just mentioned there. I mean rampant misogyny, violence, heavy leather, although I don't have a problem with leather myself and other kinds of just tremendous, tremendously offensive images flourish on MTV, but something that could much tamer than anything that's in the Madonna video according to New York Times. So it seems clear to us that it's the gay and lesbian content that may be holding up this video, and if so, it points to a double standard in terms of what's permitted on MTV. However, we haven't seen the video, and we understand it might have nudity, and that may be the real reason, which, if it is, MTV has a responsibility to be clear about it and not make it appear that it's just the gay and lesbian content that's holding that's holding it up. Charles Koehler 28:43 Great. Karen, unfortunately, that's all the time we have today. We'd like to talk a lot more, but if our listeners want to learn more about what they can do to fight media based prejudice and hatred, they can write to GLAAD. That's the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation at 80 Varick Street, that's V-A-R-I-C-K Street, that's Number 3 East, New York, New York, 10013 that's GLAAD at 80 Varick Street, Number 3 East New York, New York, 10013 or they can call GLAAD direct at area code 212-966-1700. That's 212-966-1700, also, I'd like to remind our listeners that there's an excellent organization that's local that works to combat hatred and also to educate the public. That's the Privacy Rights Education Project or PREP. We've had them on the program before. They can be reached weekdays at 862-4900 that's 862-4900 until next week. This is Charles Koehlor for Lambda Reports. Transcribed by https://otter.ai