John Hilgeman 0:02 Good morning. This is John Hilgeman for Lambda Reports. And our guests this morning are John Lathum and Kim Blankenship from the Washington University Law School, and they're both members of the Gay and Lesbian Law Alliance, and also they are going to be talking with us today about the Second Annual Symposium on Racism, Sexism and Heterosexism. Kim and John, maybe you could tell me a little bit about what this symposium is about. John Lathum 0:34 Well, John, this symposium, again, deals with racism, sexism and heterosexism. I think we all are aware of what racism and sexism are. Heterosexism, though, is probably a term that is not quite as prominent in today's vocabulary, and basically, heterosexism is a the prevailing dominant perception that heterosexuality and the views that accompany heterosexuality predominate in today's society, and that they the heterosexism provides the basis for our perceptions of how life should be, whereas, obviously we would prefer that also homosexual viewpoints are taking into account. Anyway at this symposium coming up on Thursday the 31st of January, and continuing on Friday the February 1, there will be seven speakers dealing with a variety of issues, including two specifically dealing with gay and lesbian issues. Nancy Polikoff will be visiting. She's from the professor. She's a professor of law at American University in Washington, DC, and she's a supervisor at the Public Interest Law Clinic there. She'll be speaking on legal issues that affect gay and lesbian parents. That'll be starting at nine o'clock, and she'll be speaking for roughly an hour, and then later in the afternoon, at five o'clock, Maria Gilday, la Madrid, who is the directing attorney at the National Center for Lesbian Rights, will be speaking on recent legal changes in their applications to gay men and lesbians. So these are just two of the the topics that will that we'll be dealing with at the at the symposium. John Hilgeman 2:19 Vicky, now have the two of you organized this symposium, is that? That how it came about? Kim Blankenship 2:25 Well, we have a group. There were four student groups that were involved in organizing the symposium. Gay Law was one. The Women's Law Caucus helped also, as well as the Black Law Students Association and the newly formed Indian Law Society. The Student Bar Association has been real helpful with funding it, and we've also gotten some support from the administration in terms of sponsoring reception for us and helping us with mail outs. So it's a pretty much a university wide or law school wide effort, John Hilgeman 3:00 Okay, one of the things it talks about racism. And I'm wondering, in the light of this whole situation in the Middle East, which what with? What's going on with, like Arab, way people are thinking of Arab people, the way people are thinking of Jewish people. And I know, of course, African American, way people think of African American people. What are some of the, how is the symposium going to address those issues? Is it focusing on all those issues? Or maybe you can Kim Blankenship 3:34 Well, when we originally started planning, our group was really looking for gay, lesbian speakers. That we do have a speaker, Saad el Amin, who is coming in from Richmond, who will he's like the formal former general counsel and National Business Manager of the Nation of Islam, and I'm sure that it will come up in at least his talk, if it doesn't come up Thursday in the workshops, I think that as it affects minorities and with it being so prevalent right now that the speakers will probably, most speakers will probably address this issue as to how it affects the relevant topics. John Hilgeman 4:15 What about Go ahead? John Lathum 4:19 Yeah, I would say that I'm sure that he will probably address the current situation in the United States with the Iraq crisis and the perception that Arab Americans are being persecuted. I'm sure he'll probably speak about that as as part of the program. Should be fascinating. John Hilgeman 4:39 What about the issue of sexism. Can you tell me a little bit more about what's being addressed there? Kim Blankenship 4:47 We have two excellent speakers that are coming in to talk about that. Barbara Katz Rothman will be talking on reproductive rights. And not only is she a professor of sociology, but she's she's written a book called Recreating Motherhood: Ideology and Technology in a Patriarchal Society. She's very well known in the field of law for her expertise in reproductive rights. The other woman will be talking about how you take neutral, neutrally faced laws and how they are discriminatory applied when it comes to women. The classic example for her is self defense, where it's okay for a man to be provoked in its self defense, but how if a woman is in a wife battering situation, the self defense technique is or defense is not available to her. Her name is Cynthia Gillespie. She also is well known in legal circles, and has written the book justifiable homicide battered women's self defense in the law. John Hilgeman 5:55 Okay. Now, by self defense, you mean killing someone to protect yourself, Kim Blankenship 5:58 Right? Or using the use of deadly force, maybe even attempted homicide, to protect yourself. John Hilgeman 6:11 Okey doke, what about heterosexism? I know all these issues actually are tied together, but what about heterosexism? Can you tell me a bit more about that? Kim Blankenship 6:24 Well, I can't really. I'm hoping to learn just as much from these speakers when they come out myself. Nancy is going to be talking about how it affects the parenting area for gays and lesbians. There are a lot, of course, it's if you're a gay or lesbian, it's very, very difficult, if not impossible, to adopt, and there are a lot of restrictions for lesbians and gay men in trying to raise their kids, particularly if they're in divorce situation. Maria is going to try to deal with the interrelatedness of all of these issues, the racism and the sexism with the heterosexism. But she's going to be talking generally about laws such as in immigration and constitutional law, how they've changed, and what the status for gays and lesbians is today. John Lathum 7:22 I think an interesting thing to note about the heterosexism, being gay and lesbian, I think we all know, you know, we know heterosexism when we see it. I think what will be interesting is heterosexuals that do come to this symposium and seeing the different viewpoints from gays and lesbians on a variety of different legal issues, as well as on reproductive rights and the parenting, these type of issues, I think they will, that heterosexuals will become more aware of the heterosexism just through being exposed to these different viewpoints. I think that's where a great deal of learning will come in at that point. I don't think it's I think gays and lesbians know what heterosexism is, but I'm not sure heterosexual heterosexuals do. I don't think they're aware of it, and I think that's something that will be very interesting for them to find out. I'll be very interested in seeing people's reactions. John Hilgeman 8:24 Let's see, what do you see as the central element in all of these things, in all of these isms? Do you see any common thread that runs through them all? Kim Blankenship 8:37 I believe that there is a common thread, and I don't know if I could really articulate it right now. I think for in terms of legal education, I think it stands for we've got to become aware of what the dominant culture is and what it does to people that aren't in the dominant class. I think that the best way to overcome the isms that exist in our society is first become aware of them, before you can take any action, and to become aware of our own personal prejudices or biases that we can't quite see, bring them to the level of consciousness. John Lathum 9:22 I think what's worth noting is that it's really been only in the last 20, 25 years that the legal profession has not been dominated by white, male, straight people. I mean, that's who practice law, that's who define law, and it's only now that we have this, you know, rich mix, or richer mix of women, lesbian, gay, men and the different races that we're beginning to see that our law should reflect these type of attitudes. And I think that's that's the purpose of a symposium such as this is really to expose people to these different ideas and see how they can make it have an impact on the walk. John Hilgeman 10:01 I'm thinking of some plays, I think it was by Jean Genet who wrote some plays called like The Blacks, The Maids, The Balcony. And one of the things that he deals with in there is people who who are oppressed or who are in a position of being discriminated against, and how much more perceptive they are of the oppressors and of the reality of the oppressors than the oppressors are. It's like in The Maids. It's a play about two maids who play, one of them plays the their mistress, and the other plays the other maid, and they go through this ritual killing of the of the mistress. And one of the threads that's brought out there is that they the maid, understands the reality of the mistress, and the mistress is really oblivious to the whole thing. And in the blacks, the same kind of thing. And so I think, like for people who are lesbian and gay, it's a lot easier for us to understand heterosexism than it is for people who are heterosexual simply because we're we have to deal with it same way with sexism and with racism. For people who are objects of or who are treated to the oppression, easier to understand the oppression than for people who are not, because we can feel it in our guts. John Lathum 11:22 Absolutely. John Hilgeman 11:23 It's on a real, direct level, Kim Blankenship 11:27 Saying that the slave always knew more than the master, than the master, about the slave in order to survive, you have to know the dominant culture to exist. Yeah, it certainly put down our throats from the time we're born and putting pink and blue so we grow up. It's almost for us, I think, as gays and lesbians, it's almost a matter of having to really take a rigid step out of and say, No, we're not going to be accepted. Because this is not right for us, and a lot of times run on our own without any kind of role models. Are very, very different. John Hilgeman 12:11 What really amazes me is how well those of us who are lesbian and gay do actually, even with all the oppression and discrimination because of the fact that, I mean, we have to deal with all that stuff, and it gives us a certain amount of perspective to society. And I wonder if that's maybe why, in a lot of the movements on the cutting edge of society, there are people who are, you'll find lesbians and gay men, or you'll find, you know, African Americans, or you'll find Jewish people, or you find other people who are on the edges of society and and are already outsiders in a sense, and therefore can see society in a different way, in a different perspective. What's going on at Washington University? Anything exciting beyond the symposium? Kim Blankenship 13:00 Well, we're pretty much recluses. We live in the law school. I don't know a whole lot of what's going on right now. The, it was just recently with Martin Luther King Day and everybody but the Law School celebrated. So one of the projects a few student groups have is to work to make a proposal to the faculty to request the day off. And other than that, the symposium is the big thing that we've really been pushing. We've been pretty much one sided in terms of John Lathum 13:38 Yes, as far as gay law is concerned, this is our big event of the year, so that's basically been our thrust for the last few months. Other than that, topics Kim Blankenship 13:51 we have interesting, yeah, we have National Lawyers Guild coming in seventh of February. They'll be having their meeting at the Law School. They're a real progressive organization, the first Board-like association to allow blacks in. And have always been very supportive of gay and lesbian rights as well as rights for American Indians and people of color. So we're looking forward to having them in. John Lathum 14:19 It's my understanding that that's that the National Law Guild is an alternative to the American Bar Association. Is that correct? Kim Blankenship 14:25 Well, you can be involved in both, John Lathum 14:27 right? But it's, it's, they're basically, Kim Blankenship 14:28 It's kind of another liberal, liberal bar association. I'm very excited about it. John Hilgeman 14:34 Now, do they pass? Do they give recommendations about Supreme Court justices? Are they Kim Blankenship 14:41 Not in the conservative era, I don't think there is, but I'm sure that they put their two cents in, and I just don't know what kind of response they get in terms of that, but they're very credible organization. I mean, they're nationally recognized, and we have a St Louis chapter, which is a chapter that will be coming to the Law School to have the reading there next week. John Hilgeman 15:05 What's happening with the ROTC on campus? Kim Blankenship 15:08 Well, you know, I haven't heard a lot about that. The Commission was supposed to put through a final report in March, so it's up and coming. They did have an open forum for discussion back in November, for all of the anybody that wanted to talk, any students or faculty and staff, there were five speakers and an audience of about 25 gay law spoke for a few minutes, and there were representatives. I'm not sure there was one individual professor and a few representatives from some student groups, which were all very supportive of having ROTC kicked off of campus and the audience comments, all except for one, were also supportive of having ROTC kicked off campus. So at least the consensus of the people that are willing to attend these public meetings is very supportive of the gay and lesbian position on this issue. John Hilgeman 16:08 Okay? And the reason for kicking the ROTC off campus would be Kim Blankenship 16:12 because they continue to discriminate against gays and lesbians in their scholarship policy, and yet they're the and at the same time, the University wants to maintain the non discrimination policy, including the sexual orientation. So it's a real conflict in values. And I'm not sure how large this committee is. It's filing the report for the Board of Trustees. I have a feeling it's somewhere between five and 15 members of faculty and staff from the University, but I had word from a source that said that they just couldn't see a recommendation coming through, not supporting kicking them off campus, or at least doing something that just completely conflicted with the values that the University supposedly espouses. John Hilgeman 17:09 I'm pretty much of a pacifist myself, I guess I'd say, but it's interesting that the Greek tradition certainly valued gay people in the military and of course, Alexander the Great was was gay and went into severe depression when his lover died and built an enormous funeral pyre and burned the body on top of the funeral pyre. Empire and so and they certainly valued the cohesiveness of lovers fighting in battle together, because the lovers would defend each other and they'd fight all the harder they felt. And of course, gay people have been, lesbians and gay men have been in the military all along. It's just a question of somehow or other, the military has this idea that it's against, against the John Lathum 18:06 Well, in fact, I believe, Kim you showed me a newspaper article that there was a Navy report about lesbians in the Navy, and how this report concluded that they Were the best officer. Well, not officers, but the the best people, and had they were the best Navy people. And I think that report was squashed by the Pentagon, slightly downgraded. But do you remember anything more about that Kim Blankenship 18:34 The West? Well, there's a similar case out at the West Point, and there were two reports given to the Armed Services Committee secretly, where the military had done two reports trying to justify excluding gays and lesbians. And in fact, the reports came out saying gays and lesbians are not only okay, but we find that they're quite often better than the norm. The Army has tried to discount the data, saying, well, the reports have given us too much information, and so therefore they're not valid. But someone along the lines, someone that supports gay and lesbians, was able to secretly send the first report out. Armed Service Committee confronts the military. They ask if you have any more information on this, and they say, No, of course not. And a week later, they get the second report. So there have been at least two studies done by the military themselves that supports gays and lesbians being in. I just find it fascinating that the dominant culture, again, uses whatever myths and stereotypes they can to repress something that they find unacceptable, where other cultures have found it quite acceptable. Greeks, also in the Middle Ages, military groups were found to be excellent, particularly when there were gay lovers. John Lathum 20:03 It may just be a matter of time. Certainly, blacks were once excluded from the military. Women were excluded from the military, but now both of those groups are have been included, and hopefully gays and lesbians will be the next, the next people to be included. Certainly there's no justification that the army can find for it. And again, I hope it's just a matter of time that gays and lesbians will have the same benefits of serving in the military that women, blacks and whites all have. Kim Blankenship 20:35 One effort we were real successful at that I don't think most of the rest of the University is aware of, the law school did pass a non-discrimination policy for the Law School itself based on sexual orientation, and as a result of years of hard work, we were able to prevent the army and the military from coming onto campus for using any of the interview facilities, which is a big step for us, that as long as they have a discriminatory policy for anyone else, for that matter, that has a clear policy of discrimination is not allowed to benefit by using any of our facilities there. So we're very happy with that. That took a lot of work last year. John Hilgeman 21:22 What else is happening on campus, or what's going on in you know that you're aware of activities that you're involved with, or things that you've done in the past year or so? Kim Blankenship 21:33 Well, we went to the Lavender Law Conference. John Lathum 21:35 Oh, that's true. The National lesbian and gay Law Association held a conference in Atlanta, which I believe was October 6, 7 and 8 of last year, and I and another student at Washington University attended on behalf of the school. And it was, there were about 500 attendees, both law students and primarily lawyers from throughout the country, and it was basically a clearing house for information. There was all day, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. There were different speaking engagements that were given and little mini-symposiums on a variety of issues, similar to what we will be addressing at the racism, sexism, sexism and heterosexism symposium coming up, and it was quite a it was a wonderful opportunity to get to meet other people in the in the profession that are gay and lesbians, and to see where the law stands in various parts of the country, as well as nationally, in respect to the various issues. So that was, that was really the big event that occurred last fall. Kim Blankenship 22:43 Yeah, we have two other events that are up and coming that we've talked about. We don't have firm dates on on them. One is, we hope to do an AIDS Awareness Day, or a couple of days where we have some information and movies out. We're working with Effort for AIDS on that project. We hope to have it done mid-February, and if we're lucky, Valentine's Day would be excellent for us. And secondly, we are going to have a couple of speakers, attorneys come in and talk about coming out as a lawyer in your law firm, and the fears and the risks associated with it, the benefits. And I think that's pretty much it for for our year. John Hilgeman 23:30 Well, something that the two of us, that you and I worked on last year, Kim was when Louis Sullivan came the Head of Health and Human Services, and he was giving a talk at the University, I guess it was sponsored by the social work school at George Warren Brown School of Social Work. And there was a study that was done by the Department of Health and Human Services, by a subcommittee that indicated that lesbian and gay youth were much more likely to attempt suicide than other people, and the major reasons for that were the oppressiveness of churches, of schools, of parents, of other of institutions. And he was pressured, Sullivan was pressured by, I guess it was by Danna Meyer and I forget who else to, I think Jesse Helms was the other to discount that, to reject it. And so he did, and got quite a reaction from, like, parents of gay people who were quite upset, and yet he so what we did was hand out leaflets to the people at the talk there to give him information. Kim Blankenship 23:30 Yeah, I think I talked to you about it afterwards, too. After we listened to him, it was like, Well, we think that you're right on track, except you exclude gays and lesbians. We believe that a community, sense of community is very important, and a sense of family and responsibility is very important. But we just think that the nature of the family doesn't have to be restricted to mom, pop and 2.2 kids. Other than that, I think that he would do great if he could just open his mind up to see the prejudice that's inherent in his thinking at this point in time. John Lathum 25:18 There are going to be a lot of hurdles before we get to the point where there are programs for high school students. I know that in Los Angeles there's a very successful program going on called Project 10, which plays off the 10% theory. And Dr Virginia Uribe there has set up this program for Fairfax High School, which is in in Central Los Angeles, that is specifically a counseling program for gays and lesbian students in Fairfax High School. And it's come under a tremendous, tremendous amount of opposition from parents there, but it's been, it survived for about the last four years, I believe, and I know Dr Uribe is trying to get state funding so that it can be spread throughout the county. But again, the public opposition to it is so strong, and I think it goes to parents fears about, you know, their children, and particularly in their adolescent years, where you know they're under the impression that you know the children have a choice as to their sexuality, and that they shouldn't be pushed towards making the choice towards homosexuality. And of course, we all know that it's not a choice. It is something that happens, and nobody really knows how. And I, for one, know I would have greatly benefited in high school if I'd had a counselor that I could talk to about gay and lesbian issues. Certainly, I had very warped perceptions of what gays and lesbians were at that at that point in life, and I would have been, you know, just had, you know, nightmares about being gay and lesbian if I hadn't had some positive role models. I think that's changed somewhat now, since I was an adolescent in the late 70s. But even so, I think still, in the oppressive society in which we live, that high schools need to be equipped to deal with gay and lesbian high school students, and I don't think they are. John Hilgeman 27:16 We're almost at the end of our time. Our guests today have been Kim Blankenship and John Lathum, and both are from the Washington University Law School, and maybe you could just tell us quickly, once again, the title of this symposium and the dates and times of this. Kim Blankenship 27:32 OK, well, it's the Second Annual Symposium on Racism, Sexism and Heterosexism. It's at Washington University School of Law. It's free and open to the public. If you'd like more information, you can call 889-6400 or 771-2504, this will be on Thursday, January 31 from 4:00 to 6:30pm and on Friday, February the 1st, with individual speakers talking between 9 and 6pm and we'll be happy to leave you with more information on that. John Hilgeman 28:07 Okay, that's 889-6400, or 771-2504, this is John HilgEman for Lambda Reports. Join us again next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai