Charles Koehler 0:01 I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis lesbian and gay community. Our country has long prided itself on such notions as democracy and freedom, yet the very institutions that are committed to the defense of these ideals, the Armed Services actively practice a brutal, hateful and defiant policy of open discrimination against 10% of our citizens, lesbians, gays and the military. We welcome to Lambda Reports, Washington University, ROTC, cadet, Eagle Scout and 1991-92 President of the Washington University Gay and Lesbian Community Alliance. Robert Schwitz, good morning, Rob, and welcome to Lambda Reports. Robert Schwitz 0:48 Hello. It's good to be here. Charles Koehler 0:49 Great. What has it been like since you recently told the Department of Defense in March that you're gay? Robert Schwitz 0:56 Well, it's been quite busy. My life has certainly gotten a lot busier since then. This, the dealing with this issue, I guess, takes up about 50% of my time now, on top of being a resident advisor and taking a full class load at Washington University and being involved in the other organizations that I belong to at Wash U. I've got a lot of support, though, that's that's been the nice thing, is a lot of people have supported me, and I've hardly gotten any negative reactions, except for the radio call-in shows that I've been on, where where people have called in and had some some negative, uneducated questions. Charles Koehler 1:37 The whole issue of discrimination against persons on the basis of sexual orientation. Doesn't that go contrary to Washington University's policy, stated policy that they do not allow or accept non-discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. How do you feel about the University's response? Robert Schwitz 2:00 Well, the University issued a response in the form of a task force report released on March the first from the Office of the Provost. And basically what this report said, this very detailed, 52 page report, and I think they're prouder of the fact that it took them six months to work on and 52 pages long than what it says or what it does, because it says that the policy is absolutely indefensible, irrational and illogical. Charles Koehler 2:28 That's the Department of Defense's policy? Speaker 1 2:30 That's the Department of Defense's policy, correct, and yet they don't really say that any strong action should be taken against this in the form of an ultimatum or a timetable of phase out, or anything of this nature. Basically, they recommended that Chancellor Danforth send a letter saying that there's a disparity between the policies that someone be appointed to oversee, so to speak, the relationship of ROTC and the University with this policy, and that any individual concerned that they're compromised by the policy with the DOD and Washington University … Charles Koehler 3:07 That's the Department of Defense. Robert Schwitz 3:08 That's correct. They could talk to the Provost in confidence, and they also cite some things like perhaps building alliances with other universities. But in my opinion, the report recommendations really couldn't have been more watered down and weak, and I was very disappointed by it. And I was even more disappointed by the Chancellor's letter that was issued in response to the policy, which basically just reiterated the recommendations and said, there, I've fulfilled my responsibility of writing the letter, the end. And I was very disappointed with that. They could have taken a much, much stronger stance on the issue and put their money where their mouth is. Charles Koehler 3:49 What was their their reasoning behind, not in essence, eliminating or discontinuing the ROTC program on the Washington University campus. I mean, there's, there's the flip side that by doing so might not allow many people to have continued their educational careers, because ROTC does supply monies, does supply scholarships and educational opportunities. So there's that flip side there Speaker 1 4:22 That is true. It's a question of, what price do you put on civil rights for everyone, and what price do you put on non-discrimination policies? And it looks like, in this case, Washington University has definitely placed a price, and that would be the millionaire, I think, is $1.67 million that they get in the form of scholarships, and for a school with an endowment of $1.4 billion and an operating budget annually of a half a billion dollars, it strikes me as kind of sad and pathetic that they can't take a stronger stance on this issue, because if. If they really wanted to, they definitely could take a stance. It boils down to politics and money. Charles Koehler 5:07 and ethics. Robert Schwitz 5:09 Well, or lack thereof. Charles Koehler 5:11 Okay. When you came out to the military, at the same time, I assume you were also coming out to a number of other people. How did your How did your family take it when they found out that you were gay? And did it take them a long time before it was in the media? You know, what sort of reaction did they have? Speaker 1 5:34 Well, I did tell them before it came out in the newspaper, because I thought it was only fair to tell them and my parents, my grandparents, and a few people that were close to me so they wouldn't have to find out in the paper. That's a pretty harsh way. The initial reaction was kind of, I guess you'd say the standard textbook response of, oh, well, we think that you were influenced by someone else to be gay and and you know, Charles Koehler 5:55 That's a phase you're going thru Robert Schwitz 5:56 That's right, and they had concerns about AIDS. They were a little uneducated about the difference with risk groups that are really not existent, and risky behavior, which is a concern. And their primary thing was that that I could change, and that instead of paying for a lawyer, I should merely see a therapist and get help that way, and the whole situation would be eliminated. Charles Koehler 6:27 Everything would be fine. Robert Schwitz 6:28 Right. So I gave them books. One of them is Beyond Acceptance, the authors of which run the St. Louis P-FLAG organization, and the other one was called Now That You Know, and I got them at Our World Tooo bookstore, which has been my source of a lot of resources. And they also watched a video that I brought called On Being Gay by Brian McNaught. And I thought that was pretty helpful as well, and gave him some information about P-FLAG, which they weren't really ready to deal … Charles Koehler 6:57 Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. Robert Schwitz 6:58 That's correct, and they weren't really ready to deal with all of the issues at that time. They pretty much wanted to be left alone, I guess, and deal with it themselves. And they took it pretty hard at first, but in March, when their birthday rolls around, I gave them some more books and literature that I had gotten, again at Our World Too, and Charles Koehler 7:20 a unique birthday present. Robert Schwitz 7:22 That's right, and I told them, I said, Well, I don't know if you'll like this, but you didn't give me a list, and this is what I thought you could use. So Charles Koehler 7:29 I'm sure it was very useful at that point in time, and probably is even now. Robert Schwitz 7:33 Yes, but my parents did something that really surprised me in mid-April, and that is, they went to their first P-FLAG meeting, and that was, I was extremely pleased about that. And after the meeting, we had talked, and they really got a lot out of it, and their attitudes definitely had changed, and they're going back to the May meeting, and the Gay Men's Chorus is going to be there. So I course gave them an excellent review for that. And I'm I feel like their attitudes have just, they're still having a little bit of trouble, obviously; it's not been that long, but they've come a very long way. Charles Koehler 8:12 In a very short amount of time. Robert Schwitz 8:13 Correct. Charles Koehler 8:14 It's a whole process. It takes time. I also, at this point, put in another plug for P-FLAG; I'm a very strong supporter of Parents and Friends of Lesbians and gays. They are wonderful organization. Speaker 1 8:25 They are, and they've, they've helped my parents immensely, and that would be something I would recommend any gay or lesbian person do, is do everything you can to try to get your your parents to go to P-FLAG, because it truly is probably the single most important thing that my parents have done to this point. Charles Koehler 8:43 What, what, what's been the response of, you talked a little bit about, in general, what the response has been, what's been the response of the other cadets and your classmates since, since this all came out? Speaker 1 8:55 In general, they've all been extremely supportive. I've gotten support from cadets. I've gotten, I've really I've even gotten support from some of the officers in my ROTC unit. Charles Koehler 9:08 You sound a little bit surprised about by that? Speaker 1 9:10 Well, I just had prepared for the worst, and I had totally prepared to for completely negative reactions and a very hateful investigation. And those things didn't happen. There was an investigation, but it wasn't really hateful, and my classmates have responded really well. I've gotten phone calls, letters, people coming up and talking to me, both friends and some people that I don't even know have called or written. And I think out of the whole incident, a whole ordeal, I've only had one negative phone call, and I was on the answering machine, and I had put up a copy of a news item for the people on my floor that I'm a Resident Advisor for, and someone had written, I think homo suck or something like that. One of the thing and like something or other fags or something on the other one. And that's really been about the extent of it. Charles Koehler 10:07 That's, that's, it's very gratifying that there's been such a positive response. I understand that last spring, a student by the name of James Hollibaugh, who is another Washington University student, went through much the same situation that you're going through now. Have you talked to him about your situation? , Speaker 1 10:29 Yes, I have. I've talked to him very recently, in fact, and Jim and I, while we haven't really met and talked in person, since he lives in Connecticut and I'm here, we have talked on the phone, and I've sent him articles so he can kind of know what's going on. And and Jim has been extremely supportive, and I have the utmost and respect for him. I don't know how I could have gone through the untested waters as he did. I mean, it was difficult enough knowing that someone had been there before me to kind of sensitize people to the issue, but certainly his support, and just being able to talk with him helped me immensely. And in his initial stages of his disenrollment process, he had the same attorney that I am currently using, and that is Arlene Zarembka, and she is an excellent, excellent attorney, and I have nothing but good things to say about her, and nothing but respect she's she's been very helpful. Charles Koehler 11:31 Great, great. One comment regarding the military, and that's a quote from their many proclamations, what have you that says, quote, "homosexuality is incompatible with the military service." End, quote. However, that goes exactly contrary to their own Department of Defense study, which was conducted in 1989 that shows that homosexual recruits were better than heterosexual recruits at adapting to military life, and in almost every other criteria, they were at least as good as heterosexual recruits. And yet another study or another incident, an admiral Joseph Donald, who is the commander of the Navy, Surface Atlantic Fleet, issued a confidential memo describing lesbians as, quote, hard working, career-oriented, willing to put in long hours on the job and among the command's top professionals. End Quote, He then ordered his officers to immediately discharge all lesbians. When you hear reports like this, what? How does that make you feel? Robert Schwitz 12:48 Well, it just, it just shows the the ignorance that are behind that's behind these policies. Clearly, I don't understand how anyone, and all the officers have college degrees, I don't understand how anyone with with a education, a college degree, could could say that and not see the pure hypocrisy in in what they're saying. And the fact that the Pentagon's own studies have have come up with this and, and then they were rejected because they went beyond the scope of what was asked for, and, it's just, It blows my mind. I mean, I'm a fairly rational person in the way I go about things, and this flies in the face of anything that's rational or logical Charles Koehler 13:33 or ethical. Robert Schwitz 13:34 or ethical. Charles Koehler 13:35 Truly. Robert Schwitz 13:36 And I can only hope that that some, sometime, they will understand that what they're doing is wrong. They use the exact same reason and legitimate, trying to legitimize what they were doing with blacks in the military back before they were integrated in 1948 Charles Koehler 13:56 It's almost ironic how similar the wording of the reasoning for, for for enforcing segregation or prohibitions of blacks being in the military, it's almost exactly the same. Speaker 1 14:12 That's right. And now, the person who's at the helm of the armed services and the person who's, I guess, in charge of the policy to some degree, with the Secretary of Defense and the President is General Colin L. Powell, a four star general and Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff, who ironically, happens to be a black man. And while I am happy that they have elevated them to that position, and perhaps that's a sign that discrimination against African Americans is starting to fade, certainly, I don't see how the General can support such a policy given, given his own position, he was one of the first African American generals in the service. Charles Koehler 14:56 So in other words, he's using he's supporting discrimination based on the same rationale that was used to deny his own people access and equal access some, let's say, 50 years ago. Robert Schwitz 15:10 But that's correct. Charles Koehler 15:11 Precisely the same thing. Robert Schwitz 15:11 The same thing that was done with blacks could easily be done by the President today, and that is simply issuing an executive order that will rescind the band and abolish it completely. And the whole process would, quite honestly, take less than five minutes to be drafted up. This is, you know, hereby removed, George Herbert Walker Bush, put the signature down, and it's abolished just that quick. It's not. It doesn't have to be a long, painful process, although that's what it is turning out to be. Charles Koehler 15:20 When, when the African Americans were allowed equal opportunity in the military. That was done by executive decree, if I'm not mistaken. Speaker 1 15:52 That's right, 1948, Harry S. Truman simply signed sign the policy away. But we both know that that George Bush is no Harry Truman, so it may be a while. Charles Koehler 16:03 What it amounts to is that the the military, it appears to be that the military is is promoting bigotry and discrimination among its troops against an oppressed minority, and and is supporting them, and at the same time, is punishing those who are being discriminated against. That's what it amounts to. Robert Schwitz 16:31 That's exactly right. They can even send … Charles Koehler 16:33 a policy on paper right there. Robert Schwitz 16:36 They can send people to jail for this, and they do, and they do correct. They sent some I believe it was three lesbians from Paris Island were suspected of being lesbians, and they were sent to military prison for about a year. And … Charles Koehler 16:51 we're not talking about something that's just a possibility. We're talking about real people spending time in jail right now. Speaker 1 16:56 That's exactly right. And you know, Leonard, Leonard Matlovich summed it up with his epitaph that says, they, they gave me metals for killing two men and a discharge for loving one. It's, it's just not something that should be done. But … Charles Koehler 17:10 I think the ironic thing is that the gays in the military are no strangers. You can go back to Alexander the Great, one of the greatest generals of all time. And he's, you know, his used in military text, is an example of a great general. And here we have person being used as a role model, who is, very clearly, a gay man. Was a gay man. It's, I find it ironic. Really do. Robert Schwitz 17:41 Well, the only, I guess, kind of new twist on the situation would be the deployment of gay and lesbian identified personnel to the Persian Gulf and the the merits of the Persian Gulf War can, can be debated and will be debated. But the interesting thing is now that when these when these individuals come back and face dishonorable discharge, even in light of exemplary service in the Persian Gulf, that will open up a new legal battle and then a new legal front. And there's also a case of Michael Dulles in California, a National Guardsman who has been readmitted, even though he said that he was, quote, a practicing homosexual, end quote. And so I think the, if the policy doesn't change in other ways, the military may not be able to gloat in the fact that the federal courts have upheld it to this point. Charles Koehler 18:34 A little bit of expansion on what you were talking about in terms of the Persian Gulf is that gay and lesbian reservists across the country were cleared by their unit commanders to be shipped overseas and fight in the Persian Gulf. Even after stating that they were lesbian and gay, they stated it very clearly. They were shipped overseas. These same reservists were also told that discharge proceedings would begin against them when they returned home after fighting in the the war, right next to all of their other combatants that were there. I find that incredible, and it seems that the military is saying that you're good enough to serve your country and be shot at and killed, but not good enough to remain in the military if you're gay, it. You know, they do this in the face of a policy that says, quote, The ban is necessary to main, maintain discipline and good morale among the troops. End quote, however, if they feel this way, why are they sending lesbian, self identified lesbians, gays to fight in close quarters with troops when it might, as they say, affect morale in the troops in combat? It just it makes no sense whatsoever. Robert Schwitz 19:44 It certainly doesn't, and if you want to talk about affecting morale, I see nothing that would affect morale more negatively than telling somebody, go off and fight this war, do your best, and when you come back, regardless of how well you did, we're going to give you a dishonorable discharge. Mm. I know nothing that would would lower morale more that, nothing. Charles Koehler 20:06 I understand that that Mount Vernon is your Illinois is your hometown where you grew up, and, among other things, became an Eagle Scout. Now I hear that the Boy Scouts of America has directed you to, and this is in the letter quote, sever any relations with the Boy Scouts of America. End quote. Isn't that just a little bit hypocritical, considering that the original founder of the Boy Scouts, Boyden Powell, which had its origins in Britain, was, in all likelihood, a gay man. They would even have discharged their founding father for being gay. That's what it amounts to. What does this say about you as a person? Robert Schwitz 20:43 Well, I took the disassociation, so to speak, that the Boy Scouts had with me even more personally than the military, just because I knew of the military policy and and how rigorous it was, the Boy Scout letter kind of surprised me and really angered me. Charles Koehler 21:02 Now, was this just coming from one person, or is this an official … Robert Schwitz 21:05 It's the official national policy of the Boy Scouts. And I can certainly understand if someone was involved with, you know, gay or lesbian or not, was involved with conduct violations with young scouts. I mean, certainly no one's arguing at that point, Charles Koehler 21:21 no one at all. I don't Robert Schwitz 21:23 No, but the fact of the matter is that they do discharge on the fact that your lesbian are gay. And they told the rationale for their policy is, they say in the scout in the scout oath, you pledge to be morally straight. And certainly that's not what they ever told me in the Boy Scouts. When I was learning this Scout Oath, they also told me there was a need to be clean and reverent, and that family values were to be emphasized. And I am, I have nothing against that, of any of those things. So I'm still at a loss as to why they did that. There's a case on California right now that's been going on for 10 years with Tim Curran, and the ACLU is fighting it, and I may be asked to testify in that trial, and I'm going to do everything I can in the Boy Scout situation. Charles Koehler 22:09 But what can you tell us about the Tim Curran issue? Robert Schwitz 22:13 Well, he was discharged back I believe, in 1980. He was known to be gay because he took the same weekend that Aaron Fricke took his mail date to the prom in Cumberland, Rhode Island, Tim Curran was doing the same thing, and so when he was a senior in high school, I believe, is when he identified as gay, and at that point, they separated him and Charles Koehler 22:35 from the … Speaker 1 22:36 from the Boy Scouts, and he has been fighting them ever since, and the trial still continue. So Charles Koehler 22:45 I think it ironic that, unfortunately, the military, the Boy Scouts, and all too often, certain persons in our society, are cutting out some very productive, some very valuable persons strictly based on prejudice and ignorance, and they're hurting not only the persons that they're discriminating against, but also they're hurting themselves and everyone else concerned by eliminating a very, very valuable segment of our society. I don't know. It's difficult to comprehend. What sort of things have you learned about this whole experience so far? , Robert Schwitz 23:31 Well, I feel that I've dealt with the situation as best could be dealt with. I have had a lot of support from a broad base of people, and that has helped. It's certainly not me doing all of this by myself in any way, shape or form. But I guess from the experience, I've just learned how much of a problem homophobia in our society is and how much that I have to do, kind of, you know, I feel now that I must take a kind of a leadership role since, since this is a case that's currently being discussed in the media, and use that as as a means to educate people and to maybe eradicate some of this homophobia. And a lot of people ask me what the single what they can do to support me. They don't necessarily know what specific thing to do, and I always tell them that the one thing I hope comes across most clearly is that the single most important thing anyone can do is to write his or her Congress people and the President asking that the DoD policy excluding homosexuals and bisexuals be abolished, and more broadly, that sexual orientation be added to the list of items that people cannot discriminate on the basis of in the 1964 Civil Rights Bill. A lot of people don't know it, but the trouble of writing a simple personal letter to a representative senator or the President, those letters are kept careful tally, and each letter represents 100 other people who share the same view but did not take the time to write. If every gay and lesbian in America would write, that's 10% of the population times 100, they would have 10 times more tallies, so to speak, than people in the United States. So it really does add up quickly. Charles Koehler 25:25 It goes to point in a very tangible sense, the true power of the pen, it's amazing. Robert Schwitz 25:30 It really is. And people, people will get a response if they include their address. If they're afraid of including their address and they want to make it anonymous. They can, you know, sign it a voter in your district. And I think maybe … Charles Koehler 25:45 Politicians do definitely listen to those letters. They do definitely pay attention to them. They are not ignored by any strength, by any stretch of the imagination. Robert Schwitz 25:54 And if, if they ever are ignored by by an ignorant politician, then the other thing gays and lesbians can do to exercise their power isn't supportive of that's that's very true. They can register to vote and exercise that right to vote. Surely, that is a lot of power in itself. And if people like Jesse Helms continue to, you know, hurt gays, lesbians, blacks and other minorities, then they will find that they will not be in office anymore, and that will will just excise them, I guess, from from the, they're basically a cancer in my, my opinion, Charles Koehler 26:32 Basically, you know, there are some people in our society that are doing a lot of damage, a lot of damage to people that are basically just trying to ask for the same civil and human rights as is guaranteed and granted to everyone else by our Constitution. That's what we're basically talking about here. At the base of everything Robert Schwitz 26:54 That is correct, I want nothing more, nothing less than the same rights, privileges and responsibilities that are accorded to all the other citizens under the laws of this country. And right now, that is not the case, and I refuse to accept that. And until things change, I'm going to spend a great deal of my time and energy fighting for that. I should say fighting. I should say struggling. That's a little better word, I guess, to use. Charles Koehler 27:20 Struggling for the things that everyone has been told is granted to every American citizen. But in reality, as we see in your case and in all too many other cases, is not the is not the effect. Speaker 1 27:33 That's correct. I mean, right now, I guess quote being gay is seems like a big issue to me, and I think it would be really good for the time when being gay doesn't mean anything to anybody, it's just another facet of someone's personality. Charles Koehler 27:49 Another part of somebody's life. Rob, we've run out of time. Robert Schwitz 27:53 Okay. Charles Koehler 27:53 we have thanks very much for being with us today and for taking a very courageous stand, for being truthful and having personal integrity. Best of wishes. If any of our listeners would like to voice their opinions on the military stand on homosexuality, I would once again follow with Rob and urge them to write their representatives in Congress today. And for all of us who can't find the time to do that, one very easy and very effective way of doing this is through the Human Rights Campaign Fund, which has been extremely effective in directing, lobbying Congress on issues like these concerning human rights. And for more information, you can write to the Human Rights Campaign fund at 1012 14th Street Northwest, Washington, DC, 20005, or call them at area code, 202-628-4160 that's 202-628-4160 until next week. This is Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports. Tune us in again next week. Same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai