Charles Koehler 0:01 As Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis area lesbian and gay community. It's been said that the diversity found in the lesbian and gay community reflects diversity found in the population at large. One of the many segments that make up this diverse St. Louis lesbian and gay population is the leather community. With us today to talk about leather and all that it entails is Smith, who's the Mr. Missouri Leather 1991 and co founder of the St. Louis chapter of St Louis Leather Association. Good morning, Bryan, and welcome to lambda reports. Bryan Smith 0:39 Thank you. It's good to be here, Charles Koehler 0:40 Bryan. What does it mean to be a leatherman? Bryan Smith 0:44 Well, describing what it means to be a leatherman is kind of like being asked to describe the universe and give three examples. Charles Koehler 0:49 Okay, let's not try to do that. Bryan Smith 0:52 Each each individual, individual within the leather community has their own concept of what it means to be a leather man or a leather woman. Some people, it's strictly a sexual activity. For others, it's a whole lifestyle. So basically, it just depends on where you fall and what what works for you and what's realistic for your kind of lifestyle. Charles Koehler 1:12 That comes a lot of area. The first impression that many individuals, not only in the lesbian and gay community, but also in the and the the non-gay community have of leather men or leather women. It tends to scare people. Why is that? Bryan Smith 1:31 Well, for one thing, the visual image is very strong, Charles Koehler 1:36 and that's intentional. Bryan Smith 1:37 That is intentional both for leather men and leather women. We are going for for a type of look that's related to the type of sexual activity that we enjoy. As far as the straight community goes, most people just think we're crazy bikers. So most, most people really don't give it a second glance. Within the gay community, there is a very strong stereotype that we are going to to kidnap somebody, take them out, beat them up against their will, and that's not true. If they want us to do it, then that's a different story. But it's really funny to walk into some of the non -eather bars, dressed in full leather, and you get a lot of different responses. You have people that will steer clear of you, and you have people that are very, very nervous, and have very nervous laughter around you, and then you have other people that are very interested in or will come up and talk to you and ask you questions. And that's what we try to encourage, because that's the easiest way to find out, is just to ask. Charles Koehler 2:32 Well, what sort of questions do you have asked of you? Bryan Smith 2:35 I have a lot of questions asked of me. I have a lot of people that ask, where did I get my leather? I Charles Koehler 2:40 Where do you get your leather? Bryan Smith 2:41 Well, I I've picked up my leather all over the place. I have a very good friend in Seattle, Washington, who did all my leather for Mr. Missouri Leather contest and for international Mr. Leather this year. There are, there are two gentlemen, or actually three gentlemen, in St Louis now that have their own leather stores that are doing an excellent job. And there are different places all over the country. Every once in a while, you can find a good looking coat or a good pair of pants at places like Sears or Berman's or or anywhere. So you just have to kind of find what you want and know what you want … Charles Koehler 3:14 and where America shops. Bryan Smith 3:14 Yeah, we're American shops. Knowing what you want is real important. I mean, there's so many different types of leather wear that you can get, that you kind of have to have some idea what you want. Charles Koehler 3:24 What other questions do you have asked. Bryan Smith 3:26 Well, I have tattoos and three body piercings, and my most prominent body piercing is the septum piercing, which is through the nose. And I usually wear a tusk through the nose, or a sterling silver bone through the nose. And that tends to draw a lot of attention, it gives the illusion that the bone goes all the way through which it does, but it's not the same diameter, all the way through. People, first question they always want to ask is, did it hurt, or does it hurt? It did a little bit during the piercing, but like anything, once it's healed up, you know, there is no pain involved. So that's, that's usually a pretty prevalent question is, is, you know, well, why did you do that? And basically the answer is, because it's something that I wanted. It's something that I like to look with me, and I've always wanted it, so I did it. Charles Koehler 4:11 And the same way, reason that women have their ears pierced, I notice you have a pierced ear, which is real common in today's society, straight, gay, whatever. Bryan Smith 4:20 Yeah. Charles Koehler 4:22 What are some of the most common myths that are found in the leather community? Bryan Smith 4:30 Well, one of the most common myths is the fact that activities that are engaged in by leather S and M people, or fetish fetish individuals, are first of all, unsafe or non consensual, Charles Koehler 4:44 and by unsafe, we're talking about in regards to transmission, Bryan Smith 4:48 possible transmission, of HIV virus. Correct. Charles Koehler 4:50 What the leather what is the leather community's stand on that. Bryan Smith 4:56 Well, the leather community was one of the first groups to take a stand. Uh, there's there were magazines, national magazines that were were publishing information regarding like HIV transmission as early as 81 and 82 and this was not really found in in the normal gay community. One of the reasons was the leather community was probably one of the hardest hit because of some of the activities that were engaged in Charles Koehler 5:19 in the past Bryan Smith 5:20 in the past. Now, the stance is we were still doing the same activities, but we found much safer ways to do them, so that we can still engage in the same activity, but not risk our partner with an HIV infection or other or other ways to damage the body through some of the activities. Charles Koehler 5:38 So in other words, you take a very proactive stance in terms of promoting safety. And I understand that there's a motto, safe, sane and consensual. What? What is? What is that? Bryan Smith 5:55 Well, the motto was originally conceived for the March, March on Washington, and was adopted by the National Leather Association. Charles Koehler 6:03 That was in 1987? Bryan Smith 6:04 Correct was adopted by NLA as as their motto. And safe, of course, is safe activity Charles Koehler 6:12 would not permit the transmission of the HIV virus Bryan Smith 6:15 Correct. Sane is is kind of taking care of the myth of leather people are crazy and going to do physical damage to someone. Sane play is very important. You need to make sure that there's a lot of trust with your partner, and you need to make sure that you talk beforehand, to make sure that the ground rules are set, that that there's an understanding before you ever get into it into a sexual situation, and the consensual is something else that's very important, that that the two people consent to to follow the safe and same guidelines, and that limits are respected. In, in a lot of in a lot of type of S and M and leather play, if someone doesn't know what they're doing, they can do serious physical harm to someone. And so it's very important that you trust your partner, and that you know your partner, and that you do have limitations set, and you do have such thing, we use a thing called a stop word, which is, whenever one or the other partner says that word, everything immediately ceases. And it's usually a word that would not be normally uttered during sex play or any type of, any type of S and M activity. So the safe, sane and consensual is a very, very important motto, not only for the leather community, but also for the community in general. It's, it's something that that we try to educate a lot of people about, because it is something that's very important, and in order for us to survive, it's something that, it's a necessity. Charles Koehler 7:41 Absolutely, some of the concept that you talked about just now apply to any and everyone, regardless of their sexual orientation. Bryan Smith 7:50 Correct. Charles Koehler 7:50 For the importance of the ability to sit down and talk about sexual issues, and before being in the heat of the activity. It's something that that society doesn't teach us to do Bryan Smith 8:03 Correct. Charles Koehler 8:03 and doesn't equip us to do, and it's something that's so important and Bryan Smith 8:09 and also, I have to say that the leather men and leather women in our community, not only in St. Louis, but on a nationwide and on a worldwide basis, have led the fight for education, both for the leather community and the non-leather community, because we're we don't exclude ourselves, and we don't consider ourselves separate from from the population. We try to, the information that we've gained through our knowledge and through through the events that we've been through, we want to pass along so that we can help other people, especially people that are just coming out, not only to the leather scene, but to the gay scene. Need to know information, and so we've, we've been very fortunate that the leather community has been one of the front runners in the educational aspect of AIDS and HIV transmission. So that's that's very important. Charles Koehler 8:55 And also in terms of you talk about limits of respect and you know, discussing the the the whole issue of respecting your partner, that's something that applies, whether in your leather or not, or anything, you know. So you're you're talking about some real basic concepts that that apply to any and everyone who is sexually active, or any and every, every person showing other people respect. Are there? You'd mentioned before about leather women, and I don't know that the community as a whole is, is there growth in this area? Bryan Smith 9:36 I believe there is the leather women are probably the most oppressed group out of all the subcultures in the gay and lesbian community, I know here in St. Louis, a lot of the leathermen, and for a long time, I was one of them, until I got to know them, were, did not want the leather women in the bar. The bars did not want the leather women in the bar, both the men's bars and the women's bars both. Has treated them very badly, and so as a consequence, they've kind of withdrawn back into the closet, and now they're networking outside of the bar scene, so they're very hard to get a hold of, and that's one of the reasons we started the NLA chapter here in St Louis, was to get the woman back in the community. One of the biggest issues that NLA stresses, and again, this is a nationwide organization that also includes, includes chapters in Canada, is the cooperation between the men and the women and the equality of men and women. On the national level the the organization is, is ran by co-chairs, a male and a female co-chair, each with equal voice and equal power. And it's it stresses and educates the men and women on issues that they normally wouldn't be be educated on as a gay man. And as a and as a male individual, it is my duty and responsibility to be aware and educated in any issues that may affect my life. Therefore, it is my responsibility to be educated in women's S and M, women's health issues, men's health issues, the political aspects, the legal ramifications of our sexual activities. There's a lot of different areas that we are responsible as individuals to be educated in, and that's one of the nice things about NLA. It provides a nationwide communication network that allows the exchange of information across the country to individuals. In the Midwest, we tend to be a little bit secluded because we're in the heart of the Bible Belt, and we're not the East Coast, we're not the West Coast, we're just kind of stuck in the middle. So this gives us an opportunity to know what's going on in a nationwide basis, and to allow information to be passed along to members of our community. Charles Koehler 11:43 Great. I would imagine that one of the most common myths about persons who are leathermmn or leather women is that they're a person that is to be afraid of, and that you're smiling. That's certainly not the case. Bryan Smith 12:02 No, not not, not as a not as a majority at like any situation, there's always going to be the one or two ringers in there. But that's also true in the preppy crowd and everything else. You just, you just, you just have to kind of keep an eye out when we were every time we go to International Mr. Leather, which is the Nash international contest in Chicago over Memorial Day, you always see these, these very big, muscled men that look very intimidating. And even for people that have been involved in the leather scene, as long as I have, it can be very intimidating. But you have to, you have to go beyond that, and once you get up and talk to them, then you find that they're very nice individuals. They have nice normal jobs, and this is just part of their lifestyle. So even, even for the leatherman and leather woman, leather can be can be rather intimidating. So people that aren't acquainted with it, it usually is very intimidating. But the best thing to do is, if you find someone that strikes your fancy, go up and talk to them. We're very nice. We're very normal human beings. We all have jobs and homes and so the easiest way is to talk and ask questions. If, if you, if you meet a leather person that isn't really interested in answering questions, then you don't really need to mess with them. A true leather person that is educated and knowledgeable will take the time to answer questions and and and try to help educate. Charles Koehler 13:20 Great. Do well, you'd mentioned this a little bit before, but is leather a hobby or is a way of life? It means different things for different people, I think You're saying Bryan Smith 13:34 It can. For me, it's, it tends to be a lifestyle because of because of my involvement, it it covers many aspects of my life. Whether I'm wearing my suit to work or whether I'm dressed in full leather, I always, I always wear my leather. Sometimes it's on the outside, but I'm always wearing it on the inside. And that's what's real important. My philosophy and and the way that I choose to live my life, I think, is very leather based, because I like the concepts, I like, I like the ideas that it promotes. And so for me, it's it's always with me at some point. I have a very good friend who is a an oboist with a national symphony who wears his leather harness underneath his tuxedo. So everybody has their own ways of expressing, expressing their leatherhood. It would be nice if we had an environment and a community where we could wear it all the time, and it really didn't matter. But unfortunately, with a lot of people's jobs, they just can't do it. So, you know, some people, some people wear it just to the bar. Some people wear it that aren't interested in actually wearing it for sex or for the S and M purposes, they just like to wear it. So, you know, there's, there's different degrees, there's all different shades of gray that that people fall into, from the pure white to the pure black. And then there's all the variations in between. Again, you know, you just have to kind of talk to someone, find out exactly where their heads at and, you know, find out to what degree they're into it. Charles Koehler 14:58 One of the things that I'm learning, for instance. Is the incredible range of diversity within the leather community. I mean, it's, it's, it's the entire range. Bryan Smith 15:07 It's extreme. We have, we have people that are into leather, that aren't necessarily into S and M. We have people that are into S and M, that aren't necessarily into wearing leather. We have people that are into cowboy gear, fireman's gear. It can be as specialized as you want. And again, it just depends on your creativity and your imagination and what what satisfies you. NLA is, has a very large population of straight and bisexual members. Charles Koehler 15:36 I was just about to ask that. Bryan Smith 15:38 So it's, it's, it's another way for … There, there are a lot of individuals that are heterosexual or bisexual that are also involved in S and M activities, or fetish activities, or the quote, leather activities, that that really have no outlet for, for gaining information or learning how to you know, there's, it's kind of the joke of you can tie someone up, but there's a right way in a wrong way, and so you know, you need to learn the right ways to do things in order for you to be able to play safe and and not endanger your partner. So one of the nice things about NLA is Charles Koehler 16:13 To show respect for your partner? Bryan Smith 16:14 Correct. So one of the nice things about NLA is the fact that they they don't discriminate based on sexual orientation or based on gender. They do have a large population of heterosexual and bisexual members. Charles Koehler 16:26 I can, just in my mind, imagine going to a conference and seeing a, first of all people, women and men in leather. And then you have this mix, this incredibly diverse mix of people, not only lesbian and gay, but also straight. And I can, I'm trying to match in my mind, but some of the conversations, Bryan Smith 16:49 It can be, it can be fairly interesting. And one of the things that a lot of a lot of the men, I think now are experiencing, there are a lot of very good female tops out there. And one of the, one of the things that the conferences on the on the national level that they do, they'll tend to do workshops, and a lot of men have have been a little set back, because there there would be a woman top whipping a male bottom. And a lot of the activity doesn't necessarily engage in the, in the and what most people consider sex. A big majority of S and M activity, or leather activity, is more mental. It's more it's more fantasy. It's more of a mind game than it is the actual physical act. So there are now pansexual groups that will have play parties where there is no actual sex involved, but there may be such things as whipping or bondage that are that are integrated between the men and the women. Even though it's gay men and lesbian women, it's not so much the fact of your plumbing, but it's what's made up in your mind and how you can relate that across to your partner. So that's another area that's opening up, and it's becoming fairly common. Charles Koehler 18:09 And indeed, sex is a, when you get right down to it, is a very cerebral activity, aside from the plumbing aspect of it. How long is the leather scene been around? Bryan Smith 18:26 Oh, how long has gay sex been around? I mean, if you, if you think back, one of my earliest recollections is being, being very young and watching the old Spartan and Gladiator movies. I mean, you know, it's the whole concept, I think has always been there. It's just it's been a part of life. Charles Koehler 18:44 How would you, in the in the contest that you have, there's a conference that's coming up, and we'll talk about in just a little bit. But how would you describe a typical contestant, as far as their age or occupation? You know? Bryan Smith 18:57 Well, I competed in international Mr. Leather this past year, and there were 54 contestants, and they were probably the most diverse 54 men that I think I've ever met. It there there are no stats set stereotypes. As far as age, we had him as young as 21 we had one contestant who was, I believe, 48 so Guy Baldwin, when he won international Mr. Leather in 89 was in his 40s, so there's really, there's really no restraint upon age or occupation. It's just all walks of life. Charles Koehler 19:30 I met a gentleman at a conference in St Louis that was held in St Louis a number of years ago, and he won some leather contest. I forgot exactly which title he held, but he's a second grade teacher. I mean, you find I know someone else who's a rather prominent lawyer in the St Louis area, every single possible occupation you can imagine. Bryan Smith 19:55 And you know one of the one of the other points, Charles Koehler 19:58 I'm sure the same applies to women. Bryan Smith 20:00 Yeah, it's absolutely true. You know, the leather the leather people have probably the worst reputation as far as stereotypes go, but yet, we're probably the safest and most respectful of our partners than any other aspect of the community, Charles Koehler 20:15 Because that's out of necessity. Bryan Smith 20:17 Because that's out of necessity, it's, it's part of our lifestyle and part of our sex play. Charles Koehler 20:22 When I also mentioned that one of the very prominent and very respected persons in the St. Louis area that is active in one of the local AIDS service organization is a current, I believe, title holder of a leather contest, and he definitely has a very vested interest in promoting the whole issue of safety and education in terms of AIDS/HIV, not only for the lesbian and gay community, but for the entire population as a whole, because it is so, so critical. One statistic that I ran across just yesterday that I think is rather sobering, is that in the teen population that the rate of infection is now doubling every 14 months, and give anyone to stop. Bryan Smith 21:16 And a lot of that is that they still have that immortality syndrome, that they feel that as long as they play with people their own age, that that they really don't have a risk of getting infected. And anytime you have sex with someone or engage in any type of sexual activity, you can run the risk, unless you play safe, of becoming HIV infected and it and it's just, it's a fact of life. There's no ifs ands or buts about it. It is. It is written in black and white. Charles Koehler 21:42 So it's because you happen to not be one of those people, Bryan Smith 21:46 That's right. Charles Koehler 21:46 The virus doesn't know who those people are. It doesn't care. Bryan Smith 21:51 And it's really sad that members of our own community are wearing the blinders to think that they are immortal and that they that they are immune to the possibility of HIV infection. Charles Koehler 22:02 When you're infected, it becomes very real. Yes, it does. We speak of S and Ms, and you mentioned that S and M is not necessarily a part of being into leather, if that's the correct terminology. It may be, it may not be. How is this different? Where does bondage fit in? Bryan Smith 22:30 Well, again, it's kind of one of those describe the universe type deals. S and M stands for sadomasochism activity, which is basically top/bottom with some type of of pain. It depends on really who you talk to. I use the term leather because, to me, leather encompasses, I use leather to encompass all the different types of activity. But being aware that there are people that are into S and M or into fetish activity that aren't necessarily into leather, I have to kind of watch my terminology sometime. But for myself, it all fits under the under the guise of leather. Charles Koehler 23:03 okay. Bryan Smith 23:03 And that's, that's just the definition that I've chosen for my from myself. You know, there are all different types of activities that you can get into. And again, depending on who you talk to, they're going to place it under a different category, or they may do like I do, and places just under one it just depends on who you talk to. So it's, it's kind of a terminology type situation, as opposed to, you know, actual activity. Charles Koehler 23:25 I understand that there are some people, for instance, that are into vinyl or rubber accessories, Bryan Smith 23:31 Right. Latex, latex is a becoming very popular. It is very form fitting on the body. It's a different feeling. It's, it's, leather has a definite texture and a definite smell and a different definite feeling when you put it on your body, as does latex. So it, I'm not really, I haven't gotten into latex yet, but simply because I just haven't purchased any, but, but again, and that does fall to me under the guise of the leather community, because it is, tends to be a fetish activity, and it is used in in play. Charles Koehler 24:07 Now there's going to be a conference coming up in St Louis very soon, July the 26th and 28th. Can we talk a little bit about this? Bryan Smith 24:16 Sure. This was something that I, my lover and I decided was essential for the St. Louis area. Because we're in the Midwest and the Bible Belt, we don't really get an opportunity to, unless you travel extensively, to, to be able to meet with national leaders in our community. We're very fortunate to have Kay Hallinger, who's the International Ms. Leather, which is the female counterpart to International Mr. Leather for 1991 and she was the first woman to win the title that did not live on the West Coast. She's from Bloomington, Indiana, and so she's going to come down, along with myself and Steven Mooneyham and do a weekend of conferences and workshops and discussion panels, basically geared towards team building and getting the community working together. One of the biggest problems that I see facing the St. Louis community right now, not only in the leather community, but in the community in general, is the men and the women really don't, don't make an effort to cooperate with each other, and that's a real shame, because we're missing out on half of our potential by not cooperating with each other. One of the nice things on Wednesday night at Angles, we do country western dancing. And that's, that's the first activity I've seen that the men and the women really integrate, and it's really a lot of fun because, you know, there's no role playing, and sometimes the men lead, sometimes the women lead, and the women dance with women, the men dance with the men, and the men dance with the women. So it's, it's a it's a good starting point to, to get the men and women working together. So one of the things we're stressing for the conference is working as a as a community, again, with the men and the women. And even though it is a leather conference, we're not limited, limiting it to leather people, anyone is invited to participate. Kay Hallinger is a dynamic individual. She has a background in education, and she's really a phenomenal individual, and she's, she's worth the fee just to hear her speak and to hear her conferences. So we're also, we're also getting to do lunches and dinners, and on Sunday morning, we're doing an optional 12 Step meeting, which is another issue that's becoming very prevalent in our community. 12 Step is a gay oriented substance abuse organization that is been working with the gays and lesbians in the community to help overcome substance abuse. And it's nice because unfortunately, our lifestyle is geared almost entirely towards bar activity where there is drinking involved or some kind of substance abuse about involved. So their their orientation takes that into into perspective and is based on that concept, whereas some of the other substance abuse programs don't really focus on that particular issue. So that's going to be Sunday morning, starting at 9:30, and that's going to be a another major event that you know, that's going to be involved with the conference. It's gonna be, it's gonna be a lot of fun. We're looking forward to. We already have registrants from Indiana and Chicago and Kansas City and all over. So it's we're real pleased with it. Charles Koehler 27:08 I have in front of me the schedule of events, and it looks like a very full agenda. It's definitely worth following up. If I could, if I could, just maybe do a slight clarification on something you just mentioned about the whole issue of drug and alcohol abuse, and that is that for a certain segment of the lesbian, lesbian and gay population that it, that it is something that they experience. But certainly, I'm sure you would agree, not everyone Bryan Smith 27:31 Correct. Charles Koehler 27:32 being a gay communit., Bryan Smith 27:33 Correct. No, I agree that is true. But, but like I said before, you know, being Charles Koehler 27:37 one of the primary meeting places, unfortunately, happens to be bars Bryan Smith 27:41 In the bars, yes. Charles Koehler 27:42 and that's, that's, you know, reality. So in the few minutes that we have left, or about the minute that we have left, are there any closing thoughts that you had in regards to clarifying some misconceptions? Bryan Smith 27:58 Well, I, when I went for the title of Mr. Missouri Leather, it took me two years to prepare to prepare for the contest, both physically and mentally. And I was always one of the people that always liked to sit around and complain about the fact that, oh, I don't like this, or oh, this is really icky, and the community needs to do this and do that. And finally, I had a very good friend from LA sit me down and kind of give me a kick in the butt and say, then, why don't you make a difference? And through my work as Mr. Missouri Leather, and through my work as preparing for that to me, I've been able to see that one person can make a difference. And that's one thing I've been stressing. I've been speaking in various places and judging contests throughout the Midwest since I won my title, and that's the one thing I stress that you can sit around and you can complain, or you can sit around and take that energy and do something about it. You know, one person can make a difference, and you just have to decide whether or not it's going to be you. And hopefully, if you do, you know, there are a lot of people that will help you and support you, but someone just needs to do it. Charles Koehler 28:59 Great, great. Unfortunately, that's all the time we have, but thanks for being with us, and best of wishes on your conference. Bryan Smith 29:06 Thank you very much. Charles Koehler 29:07 Exciting things are happening starting up, and hopefully we'll continue to development. And that's the Midwest Leather conference. That's July the 26th through the 28th at 3511 Chouteau in St. Louis at Angles. And for more information, you can contact Bryan Smith at 664-6914, that's 664-6914, or you can write to Bryan Smith at 4247 Castleman, Saint Louis, Missouri, 63110. Until next week, this has been Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports. Tune us in again, same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai