Charles Koehler 0:01 I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis area lesbian and gay community. One of the ironies about being lesbian or gay is that acceptance from society comes only with visibility. Only then can people see that a person's sexual orientation isn't threatening to them, society, or to the family unit. But our society as a whole doesn't want to acknowledge that about 10% of its members, about 10% of the social fabric, is lesbian or gay, and this resistance is often demonstrated by prejudice, hate and violence. Now, a new organization called Queer Nation has been formed to address this and other issues. Joining us this morning is Queer Nation member Brad Graham. Good morning, Brad. Brad Graham 0:56 Good morning, Charles. Charles Koehler 0:58 Brad, just what is it that Queer nation is trying to accomplish? Brad Graham 1:02 Queer Nation is another part of the civil rights movement, the gay and lesbian civil rights movement, and it's important for people to remember that this is a civil rights movement. The One of the common chants that you will hear at a lot of demonstrations is gay, straight, black, white, same struggle, same fight. What we're doing is asking, well, not asking, demanding that lesbians and gay men be given the same rights that are accorded to other citizens of the United States, as we should be. We're a direct action organization. Charles Koehler 1:43 Now, what does that mean? Direct Action? Brad Graham 1:44 Direct action means going, going right to the source, going doing things that are highly visible, very proactive, sorts of demonstrations, campaigns to raise the level of our visibility and to make it known that, to be blunt, we're mad as hell, and we're not going to take it anymore. And that takes a number of different forms. We are also very committed to visibility. As you mentioned, it's very difficult for people to acknowledge that gays and lesbians make up at least 10% of society. If that 10% of society remains invisible, it's been said that if everyone knew that they had a gay or lesbian friend, doctor, teacher, coworker, Charles Koehler 2:46 relative, Brad Graham 2:47 relative, they would, you know, immediately have to re-evaluate what they have come to recognize as a common stereotype, perhaps, or the perceptions that they have formed through ignorance. And the reality is that that people are surrounded by lesbians and gay men every day and don't know it. And that's, you know, that's precisely the point that we're not any different than anyone else. Charles Koehler 3:17 That's that's one of the things that I've noticed myself and being in different settings where someone doesn't know that I'm gay, and comments that they make and about lesbian or gay issues, and it's, it's, it's an education. And I see that that one of the roles that Queer Nation serves is an educational role. Brad Graham 3:39 That's the second prong of practically everything we do is, is education is very important. We try to not only raise consciousness of our visibility, but raise consciousness of the specific issues that we're dealing with. There are a number of ways to do that, we do some actions that are specifically leafleting and education actions to meet the public one on one and talk with them. We also encourage people in day to day life, like you mentioned, if you're in if you're in social situations and someone makes a comment that is perhaps ill-informed or based on stereotypes, to calmly and rationally correct those people. And then there are some things that we do that maybe aren't so calm, some of the picketing demonstrations and things like that. Queer Nation across the United States has traditionally employed a number of different tactics to accomplish our eventual goal, which is the the civil rights that I mentioned earlier. Charles Koehler 4:54 Okay, I think it's interesting to point out right now that we're talking about civil rights. We're not talking about lesbian or gay rights, we're talking about civil rights, the same type of rights that are assumed to be granted to every other American that are denied to lesbians and gays. So we're not, what you're saying is that you're not asking for special privileges or special rights. You're asking to be treated the same and shown the same respect, the same legal protection, the same response from society as a whole, as is afforded to everyone else on the basis of race, religion, sex, etc. Brad Graham 5:35 Certainly, I mean every year, just as an example, every year when the lesbian and gay civil rights bill is introduced into our federal legislature, the conservative movement manages to raise enormous amounts of money by sending out these, these scary mailings to people's houses, saying the those militant lesbians and gays are at it again, and they're trying to pass this, this bill demanding special protections. And we're not demanding special protections. We are asking for the basic civil rights that have been denied to us, the right to be secure in our homes, walking on public streets, in employment, in all aspects of society, just as anyone else would expect to be. Charles Koehler 5:35 I think it's interesting with the recent Senate passage of the Civil Rights Bill, that it made the front page of the Post Dispatch, and I'm sure that New York Times, et cetera, but, and it gives the impression that by passage of this bill, it will protect all Americans and grant them their civil rights. And of course, you and I know that that is not true, that this bill does in no way address the issue of protection for lesbians and gays America basic civil rights. Brad Graham 6:28 Right. America is just now being dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th Century, and we're standing on the brink of the 21st and you're absolutely correct that bill does nothing to address the inequities against lesbians and gay men. Charles Koehler 7:16 We're talking about things such as losing your housing, losing your employment, losing custody of your children if you happen to be lesbian or gay, we're talking about some very basic things. We're not talking about frills here. Brad Graham 7:29 Absolutely not, absolutely not. And it is ever more important now that these kinds of things come to be because every day in the newspaper or on television, you're seeing statistics cited of violence against lesbians and gays on the increase. You're seeing instances of people being let go from their jobs for being lesbian or gay, and there's no longer it seems any pretense about the reason these people were denied housing or let go from their jobs, it's being made very clear and very blatant that it is because of their sexual orientation, Charles Koehler 8:11 not job performance, whether or not they were able to carry out the responsibilities of their job in a responsible manner? Brad Graham 8:18 Right. That's, I mean, that's absolutely correct. It's it's becoming more and more blatant, and it's sort of a snowball effect. As each of those things happen, they they build on the past, and until we can stop that cycle with some kind of comprehensive legislative insurance of of these basic rights, then we're not, things aren't going to improve. Charles Koehler 8:43 And one of the things I think is significant that is not frequently mentioned is that this concern applies to all people, regardless of their sexual orientation, because all that has to be done is assumed that you're a lesbian or gay, and you can still be fired, and this is one of the things that most people do not, they refuse to believe when you tell them about, but there is no federal protection. There is, at least in the State of Missouri and the City of St Louis, no state or or city protection against being fired, against losing your housing because someone knows or assumes that you're lesbian or gay. Brad Graham 9:24 And even beyond that, sexual orientation, by permitting discrimination on that basis, by allowing one group of people to be excluded, relegated to the class of being second or even third class citizens, it opens the door. Well, the door is already wide open for that to happen again. People say the price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and we have to recognize that the rights that people have fought for so long to achieve, for example, uh, African Americans and women, the great strides that have been made in those civil rights movements, are not absolutes. There's no guarantee that they will always be there. That's an unfortunate reality. But because of the way our society and our system of government is set up, majority rules. And unfortunately, sometimes it's it's the tyranny of the majority that that overshadows what is right. And so if we permit laws to stand that discriminate against lesbians and gays, what is to say that tomorrow laws will not be enacted or reenacted, but discriminate against other groups. Charles Koehler 10:44 With the recent election of David Duke in Louisiana, that that's certainly not a possibility. It's, it's, it's not an imagined right thing. We're talking about a former Klans person, and of course, the Klan certainly does not discriminate our it does not exclude lesbians and gays and their their targets, their lesbians and gays are definitely targeted by the Klan and other similar hate groups. Could we talk a little bit about Queer Nation? How long has it been in St Louis? How long has it been in existence in the Brad Graham 11:21 The Queer Nation organization itself. It's, it's kind of interesting how it formed. It's been a very organic process. It's still, it's obviously still growing. It was formed just a couple of years ago as kind of an outgrowth of groups like ACT UP i Charles Koehler 11:40 Tha'ts Aids Coalition To Unleash Power. Brad Graham 11:43 Right. Charles Koehler 11:43 Which is a similar kind of AIDS related organization, I would imagine. Brad Graham 11:49 People Charles Koehler 11:49 That was in New York? Brad Graham 11:50 Right. People were looking at what ACT UP was doing, and saying, you know, this, this power that we've mobilized, this the number of people that we've mobilized to deal with issues surrounding AIDS and HIV, we need to turn that around and also apply it at the same time to lesbian and gay civil rights, not discounting anything that ACT UP is doing, but by fighting a dual front battle, so to speak, we can accomplish as much or even more. Charles Koehler 12:27 So it started in New York. Brad Graham 12:28 It started in New York. It has grown. I think there are now well over 35 or 40 different chapters throughout the United States, including here in St. Louis. There is no national queer nation organization, so to speak, each city more or less defines its Queer Nation organization in terms of what its members wish it to be. So Queer Nation St Louis is likewise relatively young. We had our first meetings in July of this year, and immediately got to work, we were very gratified to see the number of people that turned out at our first meetings and were anxious and and more or less chomping at the bit with ideas of things that they that they wanted to do, and topics that they wanted to address. And that's been the case nationwide. From people that I've spoken with, they said, all we have to do is say the word Queer Nation and or explain to them what the group is about. And we instantly have this large group of people that shows up and says, What can we do? Charles Koehler 12:33 Well, what are some of the things that have been done in St. Louis so far? Brad Graham 13:43 Well, we mentioned earlier that our our two goals, two basic goals, are visibility and education. And to that end, our first action was a very high visibility action. We went shopping. Charles Koehler 13:54 Okay? And there's enough. Brad Graham 13:57 There's a third aspect to a lot of the things we do. I think it's very important that some of the things we do be fun and be things that we can use as a tool of building that sense of community that sometimes gets lost along the way. So we went shopping. We determined that the Galleria Shopping Center in Richmond heights, at the time was having its grand opening. And since Queer Nation was a new organization, we decided it would be appropriate for us to have our grand opening as well. So purely as an exercise in making St. Louis aware that there aresurprise, surprise, lesbians and gay men all around you, we donned pink banners with the moniker of Queer Nation St Louis and spent a day in the mall. Charles Koehler 14:46 What was the response? Brad Graham 14:48 The response, as you can imagine, varied. We were either totally treated as accepted or ignored by the shopping public or Charles Koehler 15:02 focusing on the sales probably. Brad Graham 15:03 Yeah, there was probably a white sale at Dillards, and they needed to get to that right away. And other people asked us questions. We're very curious about our organization and what we hope to accomplish. And there was some antagonisms and name calling, that sort of thing. We were asked to leave by the mall management. They, Charles Koehler 15:28 What were you doing to cause them to ask you to leave? Brad Graham 15:31 We were there. That was the original there. We were there, and we were wearing shocking pink ribbons that that had the Q-word on them. Charles Koehler 15:39 Okay. Brad Graham 15:40 We were asked to leave or threatened with arrest for soliciting. A spurious charge, that soliciting generally entails handing out literature or accosting people. We weren't doing any of that. If people came up and wished to talk with us, then Charles Koehler 15:58 It was their choice. Brad Graham 15:59 It was their choice. Charles Koehler 16:00 Didn't force anything on Brad Graham 16:01 So we were asked to leave. We had a great we had a great day in the mall. Some of us found some pretty good bargains, and we did manage to, I think, raise the level of queer visibility in St. Louis. We have since contemplated doing some other little shopping sprees around town if there's, we found that if there's one thing our members like to do, it's get out and be with friends and and go shopping Charles Koehler 16:28 and other fun thing., Brad Graham 16:30 do something social. One of the major actions that we've done recently is we have stage two SIP-in protests Charles Koehler 16:42 That's S-I-P. Brad Graham 16:43 S-I-P at a Cracker Barrel restaurant in Caseyville, Illinois. Cracker Barrel, as regular listeners of this program may recall, is a chain of restaurants that discriminates against lesbians and gay men and solely on the basis of their sexual orientation. Charles Koehler 17:01 and the discrimination that they do is not just casual. I mean, it is written as part of their written corporate policy. Brad Graham 17:08 That's correct. Charles Koehler 17:09 So it's not something that's just taken on by one person on a whim or whatever. It is written out very explicitly stated that Brad Graham 17:18 the reason this employee is being fired is because this employee is gay. Charles Koehler 17:23 Okay. Brad Graham 17:23 or perceived to be gay, as you mentioned earlier. Charles Koehler 17:26 And of course, the people that are fired because of that have no recourse. Brad Graham 17:30 Have no recourse. Charles Koehler 17:32 But I, I need to stress that because, because it is so so much assumed by, from my experience, assumed by the general population that? Well, of course, you could just hire a lawyer and, you know, take them to court. There's laws to protect that, but in reality, there are not laws. In the state of Missouri, there are no federal laws. There's no laws in the city of St. Louis. Is that Brad Graham 17:53 That's, that's absolutely correct. Many people Charles Koehler 17:55 Reagan judges, they tell you the same thing. Brad Graham 17:57 Many people have come up to me and said, Why doesn't someone bring a civil suit? You know, why doesn't someone challenge this? And the unfortunate reality is, within our legal framework, there is no way to challenge it. There's there's no way, necessarily even to bring it to the Supreme Court, which is another big rallying cry. Well, if we could just get this to the Supreme Court. There is no existing legal framework for that to happen in. Also unfortunate is when you receive a termination notice, as one employee did from the state of Georgia, and it's it's listed on there in in big bold letters, the G word, the employee is gay, the stigma that that term carries, makes it very difficult to find future employment. So this sort of discrimination in employment, very blatant, very unapologetic discrimination has a ripple effect. So we went again, going to the source. We went to Cracker Barrel and staged Charles Koehler 18:33 in Caseyville. Brad Graham 19:05 In Caseyville, just outside of St Louis, Charles Koehler 19:07 just right across the river. Brad Graham 19:08 and staged what we call a SIP in. Now, you may be familiar with the lunch counter demonstrations in the earlier civil rights movement, where people went in and sat down and simply occupied a lunch counter, or occupied a restaurant or a place of business and sat down and said we're not leaving until we're heard. Essentially, that's what we're doing. We're calling this a SIP in. We would go to the restaurant en masse, be seated at their tables and order only a beverage and then remain there for a number of hours, sending two messages. The first is that we are lesbians and gay men, and we are not at all happy with your policy. We do not think it's right for a company that professes to uphold American values to discriminate against a group of people. And number two, we are lesbians and gay men with an economic power to wield. And so you see 40 or 50 of us sitting here at your tables and not giving you any money, and recognize that we could if you were perhaps more enlightened in your in your employment practices, Charles Koehler 20:31 I think I might mention that the the waiters and the waitresses that that waited on the tables were given very generous tips, because the issue was not with them. Brad Graham 20:41 Certainly, the issue is about them. Those are the very people that we are seeking to protect their rights, Charles Koehler 20:48 and all employees Brad Graham 20:49 and and all employees definitely, yes, we that's one of our policies. If we do a SIP in protest that we take we take good care of the employees, they're the ones that we're fighting for. Charles Koehler 21:02 And there wasn't any, for those who aren't familiar with the the protests, there was no, no violence, no, no, really public. It was very, very benign and very passive type thing. It's very quiet. Brad Graham 21:20 It was, it was going in. It was intended to be a non violent, peaceful legal action. You know, the idea that we are simply very, we are outraged, but this is the manner that we have chosen to express our outrage through and hopefully we can impart to you the management of Cracker Barrel that perhaps what you're doing is ill-advised. Charles Koehler 21:50 What what is Queer Nation's stance on the use of violence or engaging in illegal acts? Brad Graham 21:56 We are very committed, I think, to non-violent actions. I think it's important to approach things in a way that shows our disappointment and our anger about specific instances without causing that spiraling effect that can kind of kind of get out of control. Violence only breeds more violence. But that's not to say that through a non-violent action, simply by our presence, that we can't cause quite a stir, or we can't make it very clear that we are angry. We are outraged about a company's policies, or about a law which is discriminatory, non-violence has a has a long history of accomplishment, going back to people like Gandhi and Martin Luther King, who were strong advocates of non-violent civil disobedience. And I think as a group, we're very committed to following those ideals. Charles Koehler 23:24 Should St. Louisans have anything to fear from Queer Nation? Brad Graham 23:28 Absolutely not. The only thing that you have to fear is from not taking positive action and by continuing the status quo, which is a status quo that has excluded 10% or more of the population. One thing I would say, people bandy around that 10% figure quite a bit. And I think Charles Koehler 23:54 we had one guest on recently that absolutely, absolutely and adamantly refused to believe that the lesbian and gay population nationwide or in St. Louis was anything approaching 10%. I mean, he was of the opinion that they're all living in San Francisco or New York, which, of course, is incredibly Brad Graham 24:15 Naive. Charles Koehler 24:17 That's being kind, okay. But go ahead Brad Graham 24:21 Well, what that figure fails to acknowledge, and I would argue that that's that's a considerable underestimation, because when we talk in terms of a lesbian and gay community, we're talking also about people that are affected by discrimination against lesbians and gays. Gay people have families too, and we have friends, and we have lovers, and all of those people must be included in our in our definition of what we mean by a community, and that's to a large degree, what Queer Nation is about. I've talked with people in other cities, and they said how wonderful it is that we have this organization, because we're not really turning anyone away. We're saying, if you feel a sense of coalition, if you feel a sense of partnership or common ground with the struggles that lesbians and gay men are experiencing, then you are welcome in this organization, because, as I mentioned earlier, it's the same struggle. It's the same sorts of things that we are, that we are demanding. Charles Koehler 25:40 all working toward, Brad Graham 25:41 all working toward Charles Koehler 25:42 Some people have, including many lesbians and gays have problems with the word queer, though, and I have to admit that I personally have problem with words, and so many have heard it used as a pejorative. Some say it is as offensive and as hateful as, let us say, the word nigger. Okay, it's, it's, which is a very inappropriate word to use. So why is the word queer used when it has such a bad reputation behind it? Brad Graham 26:11 Probably precisely because it does have such a bad reputation. Language is a very powerful thing. We and I think we use it every day without thinking of it. Certainly, the people that use terms like queer and faggot and dyke usually use them without really thinking how how forceful their words can be and how hurtful they can be. Some people would dismiss them and say, Oh, they're just words, but they're not it's a very powerful thing. Language has traditionally been used as a means of empowerment, so we're trying to turn the tables. Gay for a long time was something that was seen in the pejorative, and the lesbian and gay community took it back and said, we're not, you know, we're not letting go of this. It has been used against us, and we are now taking this term. We are now taking this term and using it in a positive light. That has traditionally been the case in any number of social movements and civil rights movements that symbols of oppression have been reclaimed and used to give that movement a sense of history and a sense of pride. In the lesbian and gay community, the pink triangle is certainly an excellent example in Nazi Germany having been used against them, Charles Koehler 27:45 We migh mention that lesbian and gay prisoners were forced to wear a pink triangle to identify them. This is in the Nazi concentration camps. So Brad, what are some of the upcoming planned activities for Queer Nation? Brad Graham 28:03 Well, one of the things that we're really excited about, and we had talked earlier about our exclusion from laws, there's a of course, the Bicentennial of our Bill of Rights is being celebrated this year, but unfortunately, it's not our Bill of Rights as lesbians and gay men. We're not too often excluded from its protections. And there's a birthday celebration being planned here locally. A lot of the activities are going to center around the University City Loop, and so we're going to be in the Loop on November 11 with some information about Queer Nation and some information about, specifically what, what exclusions we have from the Bill of Rights. Charles Koehler 28:52 Now this information, is this obscene or shocking or objectionable, or is it Brad Graham 28:58 it's only shocking in the sense that it's a tremendous injustice against lesbians and gay men. It's, it's not obscene, but it's an obscene injustice. No, we're simply going to be doing some informational Charles Koehler 29:13 stating the facts, Brad Graham 29:13 stating the fact, just the facts, and we hope everyone will will come out and and meet us and find out that we're, we're just queer, we're not threatening. So we're, we're we're actually pretty nice people when you get to know us. We also invite everybody to our regular meetings. We have regular meetings the first Wednesday of every month at the World Community Center at seven o'clock in the evening, Charles Koehler 29:39 and that's in University City. Brad Graham 29:41 That's in university city just just off Delmar on Skinker, Charles Koehler 29:45 Okay. And any other closing thoughts that you have? Brad Graham 29:51 No, thank you for having me as a guest. Really appreciate it. Charles Koehler 29:54 Great. Great. I would really appreciate you being here. And it's been said that there are many roads. lead to Rome, and that it's going to take many different forms of activism to make society as a whole understand that gay and lesbian persons are deserving of their full civil rights. Best wishes to you, Brad and helping to bring about many of these needed changes in St Louis and elsewhere. And thanks for being with us. Brad Graham 30:20 Thank you. Charles Koehler 30:21 If you our listeners would like to learn more about the organization Queer Nation, or about their upcoming local events, call Queer Nation Hotline at 962-1826, that's 962-1826. Transcribed by https://otter.ai