Deborah Law 0:00 Good morning. My name is Deborah Law, and this is Lambda Reports, a program by and for the lesbian and gay community. And you're listening to Jukebox 96, and I'm excited this morning because across from me is Charles Koehler, my buddy and one of the co-producers of Lambda Reports, and actually is here with the cap on as co-coordinator of the Metro St. Louis NAMES Project. Good morning. Charles. Charles Koehler 0:24 Good morning. Deb, it's great to be here. Deborah Law 0:25 It's fun. We both walked into the studio, sat down in our appointed places across from one another, and we're ready to rock and roll. And we're here to talk about a project that I know is near and dear to both of us, and that is the AIDS Quilt. And the timeliness of this show today is because there will be a display of the Quilt the second week in October in Washington, DC. Charles Koehler 0:48 That'll be Columbus Day weekend, October the 9th through the 11th in D.C. And I know that about a couple years ago, there was a rumor that with the last display of the Quilt in, I believe that was 89, that that would be the last time that the Quilt would be displayed in its entirety. Well, this display will be the entire Quilt. It's grown over to over 21,000 panels. Just to put things into perspective, those panels will be from 39 different countries, and they'll cover over 15 acres, way over 20, over 30 tons, and they'll be displayed in Washington, D.C. in the area between the Washington Monument and the Reflecting Pool. Deborah Law 0:48 My understanding is they will fill that space almost between the Washington Monument, if anybody's been in Washington, that's massive. Charles Koehler 1:47 It's, it's massive, and it's a small reflection of the magnitude of the the pandemic that has affected not only our country, but the entire world. The statistics in terms of the number of people that are directly affected by AIDS, not including the ones that are indirectly affected, are just mind boggling. This display of the Quilt, which will be over 21,000 panels, represents a mere 13% of all the people who have died of AIDS in the United States, and they're expecting over 300,000 people to see the Quilt that that weekend. It's, it's, it's grown significantly since the NAMES Project began in 1987. It started in in 87 by a gentleman by the name of Cleve Jones, who lost a very good friend of his, Marvin Feldman, and he, like many people, had the feeling of many times powerlessness, inability or what have you, to do something about this, this epidemic that was going around. There was a candlelight march in Washington, D.C., and he decided to spray paint Marvin's name on a piece of cloth that just happened to be about three foot by six foot. And from this, this concept in early 1987 there grew the concept for our NAMES Project Quilt. And in October of that same year in 87 at the National March on Washington, that single panel had the concept of a Quilt had grown to over 1900 panels. And I can, I can remember seeing it in, in D.C. at the March on Washington. At that time, I had just kind of heard about it, and I heard that whether we're going to have this display in Washington DC, and I can remember coming on to it on the mall, and … Deborah Law 3:55 I was going to say, I was there also, and that was my first experience with the Quilt. And I'm sure, as you're talking about any, any of us who have experienced any display of the Quilt pieces, there is an image that we all get. In fact, I get choked up as you are starting to talk about this, and my image is on the at the March on Washington and walking up to these pieces, and name after name, and people that I knew that I hadn't realized, had died in San Francisco, and this was how I found out, crying, grieving, rejoicing. Because the other thing that struck me about this was I've, at times, avoided just the concept of saying I'm proud to be a lesbian, because I am a lesbian. But I was proud, and the way that we had chosen to remember people, the way that our communities had responded to the AIDS pandemic, both in terms of of how we remember and how we work and organize it, it is an overwhelming experience. Charles Koehler 4:02 Yeah, it's been sent that no one can see the Quilt and leave unmoved. I mean, it's almost impossible to. it's an incredibly powerful experience, and Deborah Law 5:15 I'm certain if one can't see the emotions, you can experience the Quilt, I think, without actually seeing the pieces. If you're there as well. If for some reason you can't see. Charles Koehler 5:28 It's, but, but, but it's, it's, it's grown tremendously. Deborah Law 5:32 So you were saying it was 1900 pieces when we're there in Washington, what I remember is it was … Charles Koehler 5:34 It's huge. Deborah Law 5:36 I would have probably, yes, thousands and thousands and thousands of pieces, yeah, and we're now talking about 21. Charles Koehler 5:43 Yeah, that's over 10 times the size that it was back in 87, that's about five years ago. And it's, it's, it's, you know, just, just remarkable, not only in terms of numbers of panels, but also in terms of, this is sort of a, it's a visual symbol at a number of different levels. It's a visual symbol of the number of survivors, those that that are left behind, that that commemorate others who they have lost to this pandemic. It's a tribute to the love and the caring that lovers, friends, families, mothers, fathers, you know, grandparents have shown through the Quilt. It's a it's a work of love. Deborah Law 6:37 And it's a, in a way, as a living memorial, because what you experience when you see the pieces, or what I've experienced when I've worked on a panel, is the true spirit of the person I'm remembering, and what I put on that panel, or what others have put on the panel, I feel like I know those folks because there's the essence of their personality, or what that person has or people have selected to remember is so obvious and so evident then, and so glorious. Charles Koehler 7:04 Some, some, you know, if you haven't seen that, the Quilt, some people might think in terms of it is almost like being a cemetery or whatever, but it it's more visually like a someone has compared it to a field of wild flowers, very vibrant and in color. I mean, multi-color. The panels are made by, one of the questions that we get all the time is people will call up our Metro St. Louis Information Line, which I'll give that right now. It's 879-8115, and they'll call up and they say, they said, I'd like to have a panel made for someone. And certainly it is possible to have a panel made for someone, but what I try to encourage people to do is to make a panel for the person themselves. And we have information on how to do it. They're made of almost any type of materials that you can think of, are of incredible variety. They range anything from pieces of cloth and have the name of the person spray painted on them to incredibly intricate quilting and sequins and hand stitching and and Deborah Law 8:25 They're beautiful and funny. Charles Koehler 8:26 Yeah, there are some that are just very, very funny. Deborah Law 8:29 And I was looking Charles Koehler 8:30 very touching, too Deborah Law 8:30 you had handed me as as we sat down together a sheet that was Quilt facts as of August 5, 1992 and one of the things it does talk about was materials used in the Quilt, things like 100 year old quilts, afghans, barbie dolls, burlap, credit cards, curtains, dresses, feathers, boas, first place ribbons, fishnet hose, Charles Koehler 8:49 tennis shoes. Deborah Law 8:51 Everything that we are. Racing silks, Mardi Gras masks, Charles Koehler 8:55 wedding rings Deborah Law 8:55 You know, the kinds of things that you would find in our back pockets or our treasure chests, when we pass that then we can have put on Quilts to remember us. You did mention the Metro St. Louis NAMES Project, and I think this is one of the things that Cleve started this from his grief and his need to express that in San Francisco, it has grown widely. And it's not only expressed in terms of the 21,000 pieces that will be displayed in Washington D.C., but the fact that there are now NAMES Projects all around the states, and though I don't know this, I would assume probably in some other countries as well, or possibly in some other countries, not only connecting people locally with the national project, but doing a lot of work locally. So maybe you would like to talk about the St Louis Project. Charles Koehler 9:44 Yeah, there's, at least in the United States. There's 35 different chapters of the NAMES Project, and I believe there's 29 or so different initiatives in different countries throughout or around the world. And a some of them, even in what I personally find remarkable, even in Muslim countries, which tend to be typically very, very conservative. But I mean, it just goes to show how the truly worldwide pandemic that AIDS is is being recognized as a, for what it is. It's something that affects everyone from all walks of life. In here in St. Louis, there'll be at least 120 people that we know from this Metro St. Louis area, that will be attending this display in in Washington, DC. It seems almost every day I get a call from someone else who said, Oh yeah. And and a group of us in a van are going up, and that's more and more people. We do know, one group from Washington University, about 35 students, that'll be taking a bus overnight from St. Louis to arrive that Saturday morning of that the weekend to spend an entire day on the Quilt, and there'll be a candlelight ceremony that Saturday night. After that Saturday night, they'll be getting back in the bus and traveling all night back to St. Louis, as I've told someone else, if I took that type of trip, they'd have to scrape me off the bus. I'm not that young anymore, not real old. But you know, it just goes to show you the number of people that are going. There's entire families that are going. I've gotten calls from people who, just just the other day, a woman who lost her son last month, and she at this point, is ready to make a panel for her son, and along with her daughter and the two of them, are going to be taking the panel that they'll make to Washington D.C., and presenting it. You know, this is happening right here in St. Louis right in our own neighborhood, in our own community and our own backyard. It's it's very real. Deborah Law 12:09 So the St. Louis NAMES Project is both providing information about the national and ways to get the information about getting there, etc, and then also providing us an opportunity in St. Louis to work on Quilt pieces Charles Koehler 12:22 Absolutely, Deborah Law 12:22 to be connected with what's happening in terms of the national project. I know there has been a workshop. Charles Koehler 12:29 Yeah, Interiors in Green managers were very generous in offering the space, and and it's, it's really been sort of a focal point for what we do, and we've been, it's been very helpful in getting people together to help make panels. One of the things that's frequently done is, rather than a single person working in a panel, groups of people, families, friends get together, and through their joint effort, through their joint input, will create a panel commemorating someone. I can remember, one that I helped to work on for a man who is very active with the NAMES Project, Van Johnson, who died about three or four years ago now, who, the concept of the panel was that a group of people who knew van would each take a letter of his name and make a six inch by 12 inch square of that particular letter of, representing within hat letter what we knew of Van. And I can remember working, as it turned out, I worked on two of the different letters. And, you know, so it was, it was a it was a group effort. I know of other examples where there are grandfathers and grandmothers working on panels along with their daughters and or sons for their grand grandchildren, little kids, you know, maybe four or five years old. I just got a call from the other day, again, from a woman in the Belleville area who lost her ex-husband, and she and her two children are going to be making a panel for the children's father. You know, again, right here in the Metro St. Louis area. It's happening right here. So it's, it's, it's truly a community type effort. It's a international effort. The Quilt itself has traveled to over 30 countries around the world, and everywhere it goes, it has an impact, and also it one of the other purposes, aside from raising awareness and education, is to raise money for local AIDS service organizations, and it's raised over a million dollars in the. The the third main purpose is to, like, as I said, to to help people work through the grief, work through the grieving process, process. Deborah Law 15:09 You, and actually, let me make another point here. Charles Koehler 15:14 Yeah. Deborah Law 15:15 There is still a little bit of time, if folks would want to make a panel. (Absolutely.) Take it to Washington, D.C. (Absolutely.) But that's not the end. This is an ongoing project. They have an office in San Francisco. Anytime we make panels, those can be become a part of the Quilt, and will become a part of the Quilt and will go out, as you were saying, on these various displays. Now, we were very lucky last year to have our second display in St. Louis, and you were key to that effort, I know. It was a fantastic display in terms of the number of panels, the community involvement, the number of public school children that came through and saw these panels and were made more aware of what's happening in terms of AIDS and and who we are. Do you want to talk about that a little bit, because it was remarkable. Charles Koehler 16:02 Yeah, the the display that we had last year in about about this time in October of last year was at St. Louis Community College at Forest Park, and we had about 1,100 panels there small part of the entire Quilt. But one of the things that I was particularly proud of is the outreach that we did to the entire St. Louis community. To the extent that we did, this was, this display was before Magic Johnson. As a matter of fact, it was displayed about almost exactly two weeks before Magic Johnson made his announcement. Magic's announcement, of course, has changed public awareness on a number of different levels about the epidemic of AIDS. So we were still working with against a lot of misinformation, whatever, but I was still very proud of the fact that we were able to not only get a number of local politicians, Mayor Gordon Bush from East St. Louis, persons from the African-American community, people from the women's community, persons who are disabled. We tried making sure that the entire spectrum of the St. Louis area was was reached. But also, the school children, and, I mean they came away, as far away as bus loads from, from, I believe Centralia of school children. And just to, I can, I can remember in in the visitors' book, reading over some of the comments that these children wrote after having seen the Quilt. And, I mean, you could tell, you could tell that it made an impact on them. And it's a starting point. It's a starting point of the process. Deborah Law 18:10 You know, I was involved in some of the setup on that, and as I was leaving this Friday morning of that weekend, what had been set up was outside the gymnasium where the display was was a videotape, and as the busses were unloading, classes of children would be sitting and watching the videotape, which was an introduction, and showed the display one of the displays in Washington, and talked about how the Quilt got started, and people's responses to the Quilt. And you could see some kids were focused on it; some kids weren't. Teachers were wonderful in terms of the work that they had done and the information that they had, that they had obviously shared with the children in terms of what they were doing. You'd watch these kids walk in and look at their eyes as they walked into the gymnasium and saw these Quilt pieces still, really, I don't think registering that each of these people had died of AIDS, but as they walked through and began to see each piece, began to, I think, really appreciate the personality that is expressed on each of those quilts, you could just watch these kids change in terms of body language. And it wasn't like kids got depressed. It was like, Tell me more. What's happening? Who are these people? What does this mean? And then they always, at each display, will have those large blocks where people can write, be it, I miss you, I love you, this was wonderful, this was incredible, whatever. And you see these kids down writing, some of whom had, by some identification with a Quilt piece, felt very close to that person, because there was something that they shared, which I don't think any of us, no matter what our age, are, ever prepared for the experience of the Quilt. And I saw this time and time again with the kids and how it reflected back to me what an incredible project this really is, because I think children are our most effective mirror, both showing us what we do right and what we do wrong. And this was clear by what they reflected, that this was so right. It was so true. It was just it was wonderful. It was one of my most enjoyable experiences with the Quilt. And I think the work that you all did in terms of ensuring that as many children could experience this Quilt was phenomenal. It was really exciting and a big move forward from when we had had the display in St. Louis previously. Charles Koehler 20:37 Yeah, yeah. We were really fortunate that the State of Missouri Department of Education did a mass mailing to all of the Deborah Law 20:46 give ourselves more credit; that was more than fortunate. Charles Koehler 20:50 we did a lot of work. We did a lot of work. All of the the volunteers did a lot of work in helping to make this possible. But the State of Missouri, you know, Department of Education, Department of Health, did a mass mailing to all of the schools and encouraged, you know, they said, because there had previously been a smaller display in Springfield, Missouri last year, and they had seen firsthand the impact that it has had. It's that the Quilt has been cited as one of the most effective tools in reaching people to get across the message about what the AIDS pandemic is all about. I can, I can still remember, we have the the Quilt display in St. Louis on the main gym Florence on the second floor. And so people would go up the the the the stairwell, and you could see that the like people would answer on the stairwell would be talking to each other, but then, when they got to the the door to where the the entire Quilt was displayed, the impact, I mean, I can remember hearing one woman gasp, oh, my God. Deborah Law 22:06 Well, say for anybody who hasn't experienced that display that it really, the people who put this together have put it together with great care and concern for all of us, so that there are monitors who are making sure that we respect the Quilt pieces. There are monitors with boxes of Kleenex. Those needs are taken care of. There are generally at the displays, sort of some quiet places, a bench, a chair. Many times there'll be some kind of music playing, or there will be recitation of names, which is going on almost as a mantra or a chant behind experiencing the Quilt. And then you will also hear bursts of laughter as we come across someone we know, or we come across the Quilt piece that is just too funny, and that is as acceptable as those tears in terms of the expression of emotion. So it is very well and carefully laid out to care for us through the full range of emotions that one expresses when you participate in something like this, Charles Koehler 23:12 Just real quick, when Mayor Schoemehl came to see the display last year, I can remember someone telling me that he had overheard—now keep in mind that this display in St. Louis was in a large gymnasium, just a plain old gymnasium the size of, well, actually was size of three basketball courts. It's a large one, one of the largest in the St. Louis area.—And when he came in, he said he made the comment, this is almost like being in a cathedral, you know, it has that, that kind of, you know, transformational process. It's, there's something that's, that's kind of, it almost mysterious or mystical, or whatever you'd want to say about the Quilt. I can, there's a couple of stories that are particularly poignant. Some St. Louisans may have remembered seeing stories about a man by the name of Tommy Gregory. He was on one of the local news channels. I believe Deanne Lane did a story about him, and he died rather recently, but one of the people who's just helped to make a panel for Tommy Gregory talked about driving—This is about a month or so before he died.—Talked about driving to his his his house, his apartment, and as she was driving, she was thinking, gee, you know, I'd really would like to maybe make a panel for Tommy, and Tommy, who had never spoken about the Quilt panels or any of that. When she got to his his place, she, um, he was asleep, and when he woke up and saw her, he first thing he said is, you know, I'd like you to make a panel for me. Yeah, and, you know, it's things like that. I mean, there's, there's so many other stories similar to that, things that that are kind of unexplainable. It's, it's, Deborah Law 25:21 It's wonderful. Charles Koehler 25:22 They're talk about the power of the Quilt, and it's something you experience. It's something you just experience. Deborah Law 25:27 Yeah, you experience it when you're there. And just as that story you're saying, it is, it is also a thread that binds us. There is an entire culture around the Quilt, and we come together. And it's one of the things that we share in terms of our memories and experiences are the Quilt pieces, seeing the Quilt, what we'd like to put on a piece for a friend who has passed. It brings those of us who are living together in a way, not only to do the pieces, but that shared experience. Charles Koehler 25:57 One of the things I think is incredibly powerful is the the way that it has brought together so many diverse people from every walk of life together. I mean, here you have construction workers, men that you know are working on a panel. You know, further there's Deborah Law 26:15 someone that never thought … Charles Koehler 26:17 someone that never have picked up a needle and thread in their entire life. And, you know, finding out some things about themselves and about others. It's, it's, it's, it's almost magical, in a way. Deborah Law 26:29 Well, we'll let people know that there, if you didn't know before, there is a Metro St. Louis NAMES Project. Charles had given you the phone number earlier, and we'll give it to you again. It's area code, 314-879-8115, and you can call that number for details on making a panel, or for information about the display and the trip to Washington, D.C. And one of the things maybe in the few moments we have left, is you could talk about some of the specifics, what will be happening in Washington D.C., what people can expect, if they choose to go. Charles Koehler 27:03 Okay, great. It's going to be more than just the display. It's, they're expecting over 300,000 people. This will be the largest AIDS related event in our nation's history. There'll be a musical called The Quilt, that will be taking place October 7th through the 11th, sponsored put on by the University of Maryland with the National Museum of Natural Natural History at the Smithsonian that'll be taking place. There'll be art exhibit, there'll be a photo exhibit, there'll be a Saturday night candlelight ceremony at 6:30 that night. There'll be a special closing ceremony on Saturday, Deborah Law 27:42 is that Saturday or Sunday? Charles Koehler 27:44 or Sunday, Sunday, I'm sorry. Deborah Law 27:46 And the unfolding is Friday, Charles Koehler 27:49 Friday morning at 1030. Deborah Law 27:52 Starting at 10:30 Charles Koehler 27:52 Yeah. And it's, what's amazing to me, is the number of people that, when they hear about this for the first time, even at this late date, they say, I'm going, I'm going, one of the local travel companies, Dynamic Travel, has made arrangements, and their number is 781-8400, you can use any travel company you want to at all, but they've blocked, they've they've reserved blocks of rooms and gotten special travel arrangements. Also, if you want to go through the NAMES Project, their number to call for travel or accommodation is 1-800-192-NAME. So there's a number of different ways of getting information. In addition to calling the St. Louis number of 879-8115 for any information on travel, on making a panel, and just basic background information. And just as a footnote, unrelated to the Quilt display, but I think it's interesting to mention is that planned on Monday, after the Quilt display is over, there are plans for an action around the White House, surrounding the White House that that may be taken, may be done by ACT UP, so we might see some additional, a different form of awareness. There's a number of different responses to the NAMES Project. There's, silent resignation. There is ACT UP, there is the Quilt, and I think all of them, to varying degrees, are necessary to raise awareness, to express grief, to create change, to help bring an end to this epidemic, to help raise awareness, to help prevent more needless deaths. So Deborah Law 29:44 Thank you. This is the end of our show today again. If you have any questions, please call the Metro St. Louis. NAMES Project, area code 314-879-8115, and the NAMES Project will be here after the display is folded up in Washington, D.C. to carry on these significant, important work that's being done in St. Louis. I thank you, Charles. It was wonderful to spend this time. We rarely get in the studio together. We both did it without crying too muc. Thank you all for joining us. Please join us again next week. This is Deborah Law. Transcribed by https://otter.ai