Charles Koehler 0:00 I'm Charles Koehler, and this is Lambda Reports, a weekly program by and for the St. Louis area lesbian and gay community here on Jukebox 96. She's been called a troublemaker and an uppity woman. She's brought controversial topics and characters to St. Louis audiences that have challenged their intellects, their humor, their politics, and some say their sense of good taste. Her works are never dull. She's an innovative pioneer and a creative writer. She's the founder and artistic director of that Uppity Theater Company, and her latest project is the Alternating Currents, Direct Currents, theater series. We're proud to welcome writer, producer and St. Louisan Joan Lipkin, good morning Joan. and welcome to Lambda Reports. Joan Lipkin 0:50 Good morning, Charles. How are you? Charles Koehler 0:51 I'm doing great. Let's first talk about the the whole AC/DC series that's alternating current currents, direct current series. What made it motivated you to do it, and where did the concept come from? Joan Lipkin 1:05 Well, it's a great title, isn't it? Charles Koehler 1:07 Yes, it is. Joan Lipkin 1:08 Well, I was really motivated to develop the series as a response to a number of historic and recent events, including the debate over the National Endowment for the Arts, the L.A. riots, the quincentennial of Christopher Columbus, and, of course, the upcoming election, and especially the Republican National Convention. All of these events have raised serious questions for me about what it means to be an American, who speaks, and who is spoken for. Charles Koehler 1:37 So in other words, what this hope, this whole series is a response to current events in our immediate history. Joan Lipkin 1:47 Well, yeah, it's, it's, you see, I think that the theater is one of the, the last places where we can creatively explore those questions and and lead the way to better cultural representation and understanding. I think that when I've just seen all the things that have been going on, I'm saying, Wow, it looks like that we are at war here. We're in a cultural war over what it means to be an American, and I'm not real happy with some of the people that are making those definitions. So I thought I would bring some people in who have other things to say about representation, and I would help to make possible for us to all hear voices that aren't normally heard. Charles Koehler 1:51 Great. The person that is being brought to St. Louis today on Sunday, is Tim Miller. Let's talk about this current production entitled My Queer Body. What does the play have to say? And just why is it so controversial? Joan Lipkin 2:45 Well, it's, Tim describes it as a weaving a quote, journey from swimming upstream as a queer sperm at conception to the first kiss to ecstatic visions of homosex. A walk around the La Brea Tar Pits and a peek into a volcano reveal some of the secrets that are held in heart and head and dick and breath. And I think what he's doing in this piece is reclaiming his body, because people like Jesse Helms, who was responsible in large part for him being defunded by the National Endowment for the Arts, are trying to decry his body and bodies of other gay people as being obscene, and he's saying, No, it's not obscene. This is my body. I'm free, I'm joyful, and let me share my experience with you. I think it's a very, very important statement, Charles Koehler 3:34 Great. And that's the reason why you felt it was important to bring Tim Miller to St. Louis? Joan Lipkin 3:38 Absolutely. Well. And there's another reason, too, Charles. One of the things that concerns me is that with the AIDS epidemic, it seems like most of the representation that we see about gay men in the theater right now is about AIDS, and certainly that that's that's a very legitimate concern. I think that theater is one place where we can all come together and try and grapple with this problem, try and work through some of our pain. And as you know, my company brought Michael Kearns to St. Louis last year to show a piece about AIDS. Michael Kearns is a native St. Louisan and a well known Hollywood actor and the first openly gay HIV-positive actor in Hollywood, and his show intimacies, which is a one man, six character show about people with AIDS, I think, is a very moving and important way for us to understand what this epidemic is about. Nevertheless, it concerns me if all we see are representations of about AIDS, you know, in the theater, because I think that that gets conflated with gay identity, and I also think that that's a very demoralizing experience for gay people to see this is the only way that they seem to be represented. So I think that we need to have both kinds of pictures in the theater, and that's why I have them both in the series. Charles Koehler 5:04 Absolutely. What's what's been the what was your impression of the production, My queer body, the first time that you saw it? Joan Lipkin 5:12 It's very lyrical. It's very romantic. He talks about the first time he went on a date and with a boy, and went to see Romeo and Juliet, and how sweet and tender that was. And I thought to myself, gosh, you know, the first time I went on a date, it was to see Romeo and Juliet. So it does, even though it has a very it's very specifically grounded in his experiences as a gay man, I think it has has a wider appeal as well, which is exciting, but I was touched by it. It's funny, it's lyrical, it's poignant, it's nude, a large part of it, and I think that's great. Also, Tim, Tim's training was as a dancer, and he moves very beautifully on stage. Charles Koehler 6:00 So would you say that the nudity or the message that Tim has to say is what upset the people at the National Endowment of the Arts so much? And maybe you can tell us a little bit more about Tim being one of the infamous NEA Four, Joan Lipkin 6:15 Right. Well, what happened is, a couple of years ago, four people were funded and then defunded by the National Endowment for the Arts. They were unanimously approved by a peer review panel, a very prestigious peer review panel, which is supposed to be, you know, which was set up to try and test some kinds of standards, and then the government just decided to overturn it. And I think it's important to look at which applications they overturned, particularly since they were all ones that had been approved, three gay people, I should say two gay men, one lesbian and one radical feminist. And I think it's very important that we name specific oppressions. This is about freedom of expression. But we have to ask whose freedom of expression is being denied here, and as we look it's women and homosexuals. This is a cultural battle that is being waged on the battle on the bodies of homosexuals and women. This is an issue of homophobia and sexism. Charles Koehler 7:20 So that's basically what it's saying about the state of artistic expression in today, for today's artist, is that there's this oppression. Joan Lipkin 7:30 There's a terrible oppression, and it's getting worse. People think that because we have won certain kinds of rights in our country, that these rights are guaranteed, and as you know that that's not the case, because there is a tremendous backlash on the right that would like to see these kinds of things reneged. For example. I mean, with the right to abortion, we're in terrible danger of having that repealed every day, and every every time some legislation gets passed, it seems to get, you know, taken away just a little bit more. And the same thing is true about freedom of expression and gay civil rights. And you know, you and all your audience knows what's going on in Oregon. I mean, I don't have to tell you about that, and that is why I think it is so important that we hear voices like Tim Miller's that are proud and free and are standing up and being who they are, because you know, just to be who you are sometimes is a political statement, just to freely be an artist and say, what you need to say is a political statement. Charles Koehler 8:32 Would you say that St. Louis is ready for Tim Miller, and are you worried about the production being closed down because of obscenity, or whatever you talked about this backlash. Joan Lipkin 8:43 Right. Is St. Louis ready for Tim Miller? That's a good question. I think the time is right for Tim Miller. I can't imagine a better time with everything that's going on, politically and socially and culturally. I think we need somebody like Tim Miller to come to St Louis. What do you think? Charles Koehler 8:59 I think that, from what I've read in the Riverfront Times, and the program in the lesbian and gay news telegraph and also the Post Dispatch, all of which have covered the production, My Queer Body, it does sound like it's now is the time, if not several years ago. Joan Lipkin 9:17 Right. I mean, it doesn't mean that it's easy. Social change is not easy, but it has to begin somewhere, and I think it's good to shake things up and stir up the pot a little bit. Now, has there been resistance? Is that the question? The answer is an unqualified Yes. We've been having all kinds of problems around this production. I was out in San Francisco, I guess, at the end of the summer, doing some research on solo performers and thinking about, you know, what I wanted to do next, and I get a call that the Post Office won't deliver my flyers. Charles Koehler 9:52 What? Joan Lipkin 9:53 Yeah, they they refused to deliver the flyers because they thought that they were obscene. And they felt that we should either put them into the old plain brown wrapper, or that we should put some sort of a disclaimer on the front of them warning sexually explicit material, like people haven't seen other things that are more explicit, Charles Koehler 10:15 Probably on daytime television or whatever. Absolutely. Joan Lipkin 10:18 How about just when they get up in the morning, Right? And they look at themselves in the mirror. I It was just incredible to me. And we went round and round, and we had quite a battle about it. And I refused to put any kind of a disclaimer on the outside of the of the flyer, because I really felt that that would be to apologize, would be to apologize for the material. And I I'm not going to apologize for this material. It's artistic, it's political, and it's totally valid. But the other thing that, you know, when I was talking to Tim about it, he made a very good point. He said, Well, gosh, I'm Joan. I'm already censoring myself with this wonderful photograph where he has all his body parts, you know, demarcated by by labels. And that's a good point. So we had that problem. The printer did not want to print it, and has told us that that that company will not work with us. Again, we've been getting a lot of phone calls of dissension, personally to me, to the Box Office and also to the Church, because you see, the St. Marcus Church is where the theater is housed, and that concerns me. Charles Koehler 11:23 What has been the response of the folks at the St. Marcus church in bringing this series to their St. Marcus Theater? Joan Lipkin 11:30 Well, you know, they're good folks, and I've kind of been, if you've been following my career at all, you know that I've been kind of working on them and that space for a while. Three years ago, I did a production called Some of My Best Friends Are, which was St. Louis's first gay and lesbian satirical review. Charles Koehler 11:48 It was wonderful, I might add, I saw it three times. Joan Lipkin 11:49 Oh, I see, a frequent flyer. Charles Koehler 11:55 Absolutely. Joan Lipkin 11:56 Well, thank you. We really appreciate that, sure. So, yeah, that was a tremendous success, and it ran for months and months and kept being extended. And in fact, the show did so well that the first major capital improvements that the Theater was able to make was because of our box office receipts. Some of my best friends are was responsible for the lighting system, you know. So we only we have a joke going around; it should be called the Joan Lipkin Memorial Lighting System. It was that queer theater that made it possible for the lights to be purchased. And then two years ago, we did a pro-choice musical comedy there called He's Having Her Baby. And other people have done gay theater there. Chris Jackson has done a lot of work there that's been well received. But I do think it's a stretch, yeah, and it seems like I keep pushing the envelope a little bit more each time I go out. And it's it just, I think that that just has to do with my own notions of my work, and also what I think needs to happen politically and socially. I don't do it to try and upset, you know, the congregation. I do it because the work has to, we can't just continue to do the same kind of work, but we need to take it a step further. But, yeah, it's definitely a stretch for them. Some of them are older. It's a long time congregation. These aren't necessarily their values, and I worry about it. I worry when they get calls harassing, you know, the Church, and calling into question the integrity of the minister and the congregation. I think that that's really pretty terrible and not real Christian behavior, which is what it's passed off as, but we've been doing a lot of things to try and get our ducks in order. We had a meeting with a prominent theologian, a man who wrote Invitation to Theology, and he wrote a statement for us, which has been passed out to the congregation, in which we share with with the audience, all about what the role of the church can be and what what Jesus, Jesus's reaction would have been to this kind of thing. And this theologian, Allen O. Miller seems to think that Jesus would have been very much in favor of work like My Queer Body. Charles Koehler 14:08 If I can just quote from the Post Dispatch article entitled In the Uppity Tradition about you and your work in in St. Louis. It ends with a quote from Allen O. Miller that says, quote, one may not approve of the lifestyle being represented nor the language being used by the actors in the presentation. What one needs to recognize is that the images being presented express real human issues that are part of our everyday life. And then it goes on a Christian church is precisely the place where these stories of these outsider people need to be shared end quote, Joan Lipkin 14:46 Yeah, I'm glad you read that, Charles, I think it's really important. People seem to separate, you know, political activity from from some sort of spiritual life and and I think that they're very much connected. I don't talk about it that often, because it's so open to misinterpretation, and it seems like the far right seems to have co-opted and appropriated the whole notion of morality, and I think it's time for for the middle ground and the left to reclaim it. The fact is, is that there isn't much distinction between political activism and and spiritual agency. I think that they're in very much linked. Often, one becomes politically active because of their spiritual convictions, because they don't believe that anyone should be oppressed or suppressed on the basis of race or gender, class or sexual orientation. So it's very important to me to try and, you know, try and foster people's theological understanding, particularly if we're going to be housed within a church. But the funny thing about trying to do this radical work is that there are so many constituencies that wind up getting involved, funding agencies and the government and the church. It's it's much more complicated than anybody who just buys a ticket and hopefully comes and enjoys the show can even begin to imagine. Charles Koehler 16:06 I would imagine that it surprised you, too. Joan Lipkin 16:08 Yeah, I really have to say, Charles, of all the work that I've done in the past few years, this has been the most complicated in terms of managing all of these various constituencies and putting out one fire after another. Charles Koehler 16:23 You've been quoted as saying that controversy has a place in the theater. Is that what the ACD series is partly about? Joan Lipkin 16:30 It partly is about that. I think that through controversy, we learn and we help to define ourselves. But I also think that the alternate currents / direct current series is about people seeing something about themselves. It's both things. Where does one go to see work about gay, gay identity or lesbian identity? Where does one go to see very strong work that has a feminist quality? What I'm trying to do with this series is to show the kind of work that's not usually seen in St. Louis. I don't want to replicate what what the Rep is doing, or some of the other theaters in town, they're doing a fine job. What I see my role as is bringing in work that we don't see. And sometimes it's controversial, and and sometimes it's not, but I don't think the controversy is a bad thing, do you? Charles Koehler 17:26 No, and well, how would you respond to some St. Louisans or some some local people that might object to the productions that are being put on and might claim that they are obscene or pornographic? First thing I would do is invite them to actually take a look and see for themselves that they aren't. But how would you respond to them? Joan Lipkin 17:48 Well, pornography is such a complicated, loaded word, isn't it? I I think that there's something very pure and very almost naive in some ways about Tim's performance, he's very boyish and sweet and has a kind of innocence on stage, even though he says some very sexual things. That doesn't strike me as pornographic. I think that when people say that, they're saying that gay identity period is pornographic. Don't you agree? Charles Koehler 18:19 I do not agree that gay identity is pornographic. Joan Lipkin 18:22 No, I'm sure you don't. I'm saying that I think that that's part of what the controversy is about, is that they think that gay identity itself, in itself, is pornographic. And I think that that's what they're saying. And I obviously, I don't agree with that. But if they don't believe that this kind of work should go up. First of all, I don't think people should pass judgment on things that they haven't seen? Charles Koehler 18:47 Absolute, absolutely. Joan Lipkin 18:48 You know. I mean, how can, Jesse Helms had never even seen Karen Finley's work when he tried to censor it, and he sort of had his foot soldiers out there for him. And I just think that that's, that's just deplorable. But I would also say to those people who don't feel that work by Tim Miller or Holly Hughes, John Fleck or Karen Finley, and I'm naming the NEA Four, those people who don't feel that work should be funded by the NEA, I would say to them, but according to Kinsey, at least 10% of the general population is homosexual, and so theoretically, I would say then that at least 10% of funding for the arts should go to work that has to deal with gay or lesbian artists. Charles Koehler 19:34 to reflect the totality of at least the American society Joan Lipkin 19:38 Exactly, because we're all taxpayers, we're all citizens, and my money goes for all kinds of things that I don't agree with. Charles Koehler 19:47 Sure, sure. What have you learned just briefly about St. Louisans from doing your plays here? What sort of things have surprised you? Joan Lipkin 19:56 How much some people really appreciate what we're doing. How much, how important it is. You know, you said a little while ago, Charles, that you had been to see some of my best friends are three times. That means a lot to me. I find that incredibly empowering and moving to have you say that to me. It says to me that we are doing something that people need, that we are creating community through the theater work that we're doing, that we are filling something in people's lives that are that is not being met somewhere else. What more could an artist ask for? Charles Koehler 20:32 Well, I think that the work that you do and people like you that do, helps to bring about positive change that's needed in our society, and more particularly in the St. Louis area. Yeah, the St. Louis Post Dispatch article on you, though, gives the impression that the alternating current, direct current series, it leads the reader, but to believe that all of the performances are about lesbian or gay issues and reading, Joan Lipkin 21:01 Right. But that's not quite right. Charles Koehler 21:03 That's not quite right. Joan Lipkin 21:04 No, but it was a great article. Charles Koehler 21:07 Sure. Nice picture of you. Joan Lipkin 21:10 Oh, thank you. Yeah, my mother will appreciate that one. She'll say, Who is that woman? Charles Koehler 21:15 Can we talk about a little bit about the the other productions that have been that are being put on, the one that has been put on already beyond Brooklyn with Sally, uh Sarah Felder, who I believe is described as a Jewish lesbian performer juggler from Brooklyn. When I saw it, I was really taken aback by how wonderfully entertaining, funny and at times, very touching, and had it in an insight into humanity. I mean, it was, it was amazing to me, as this person is juggling these objects, insight that she, she gave the audience, into the human condition, sometimes very, very touching and moving. It was a great time. And I enjoyed it. Could we maybe talk about some of the other directions coming up? Joan Lipkin 21:59 Sure, well, I'd like to say that one of the reasons why a lot of the work is gay and/or lesbian is because, again, these are the voices that are not heard, and because, frankly, this is what I find really interesting. I think that when you have people who have been marginalized, whether it's gays and lesbians, whether it's feminist, blacks, Jews, whatever, what you find is that some of their stories are really the most interesting, the kind of work that's coming up through the cracks. It's interesting about Sarah is, yeah, she is a lesbian performer, but she's also Jewish, and her Jewish identity was really central to that piece, Charles Koehler 22:37 Absolutely. Joan Lipkin 22:38 Right. So, you know, there's a real mix of stuff. Well, Eileen Miles, yes, I'm happy to have an opportunity to plug Eileen Miles will be coming in next week. Eileen Miles is a lesbian. She's a poet/performance artist from New York who used to be part of the famed St. Mark's Poetry Project, and she has performed everywhere from Rock Palace CBGBs to the Museum of Modern Art, and she's running Charles, for president. Charles Koehler 23:05 Great. Joan Lipkin 23:05 With her pit bull, Rosie. So Reno offered to be her vice president or something, but I think that Eileen already had her, you know, her, her whole platform, and every everything else about her campaign planned out, but she's running for president, and I think that this is really kind of a performance piece that she's running for president. She has very interesting things to say about what it means to be a lesbian and to to, you know, to be political in in the world today. And we thought it would really be fun to bring Eileen in right before the election. Charles Koehler 23:38 The timing is excellent. We've got about four minutes left, and I'll just mention that, that the program mentions her as being somewhere between Angela Davison and Pat Paulson. Joan Lipkin 23:49 Right. And she's going to be Friday, October 30 and Saturday, October 31 Charles Koehler 23:54 Okay, and then the on November the 6th through the 8th, there is going to be the performance of After Rodney. Just briefly. Joan Lipkin 24:02 After Rodney is a poetry performance group that I founded with Marcia Khan of white women and women of color, where in which we try to answer the question that Rodney King asked, Can we all get along? The evening will be an evening talking about race and racism and so it, but it's very interesting and a real diverse kind of spread of work. So we really hope people come for that. Charles Koehler 24:24 And also it looks as though it's from a woman's point of view. Joan Lipkin 24:29 Right, right. Charles Koehler 24:30 Something that's not heard enough. Joan Lipkin 24:32 Exactly. And see, I mean, you know, the sexual orientations of the people and of the group are fairly diverse. But again, this is not lesbian specific, although I would think that anybody who's progressive and interesting, you know, would want to see something like this. And then your you know, the your rave fave is coming back. Mr. Kerns, Mr. Michael Kerns. Charles Koehler 24:55 I'll just put in a plug for Michael Kerns performance of his plays, Intimacies. These. It's, it's part of this series, and when it was here earlier, it, it was one of the most electrifying and captivating performances I've seen anywhere on Broadway or off. It's, it's an absolute must see by everyone. And it runs November, 19th, 20th and 21st. He does Joan Lipkin 25:19 and 22nd Charles Koehler 25:20 and 22nd Thank you. And he creates six characters and, and it's, it's absolute magic on stage. It's, it's incredible evening of theater. Joan Lipkin 25:34 Great. Well, I couldn't agree more, Charles, which is why we're bringing him back by popular demand. right? And are you going to make me plug my own play? Charles Koehler 25:41 Absolutely. Joan Lipkin 25:43 This is embarrassing. Charles Koehler 25:44 Good. Do it shamelessly. Joan Lipkin 25:46 I see no, I am in pain saying this. Okay, well, we're going to end with, I mean, what is a theater company if you cannot do your own work? Right? Charles Koehler 25:53 Sure. Joan Lipkin 25:53 Right. So I have a new play for those of you who have been wondering what I've been up to lately. It's called Small Domestic Acts, and it examines the impact of role playing in the relationships of both a lesbian and a heterosexual couple. And the question is, what happens when one part of a couple changes? It is a surprising and explicit Inquiry into the nature of sexual identity and social construction. Each performance will be followed by a public discussion with myself and the cast and the directors to elicit feedback for the future development of the script. And I think it's really quite a surprise for people who've been following my work. I would describe it Charles as Brecht meets Pirandello meets As the World Turns. Charles Koehler 26:42 [Chuckles.] Joan Lipkin 26:41 So and it really is about the nature of sexual identity and how fluid it is. And I think that, once again, I'm going into hot water. People may not agree with what I have to say, but I hope that they'll find it interesting, and I really hope that they'll come. Also a well known member of the Women's community is going to be in the show, and I'm very excited about that. Pook Phaffe. Charles Koehler 26:42 Oh. Joan Lipkin 26:43 a Wired Woman? Charles Koehler 26:45 Yes, absolutely. Joan Lipkin 26:49 Uh huh. People might know Pook especially from being an emcee for Wired Women events. But also, she was in last summer at Blue Fish Cove, which was the the lesbian classic by Jane Chambers that Wired Women did several years ago, and she's just a wonderful actress and and we have many wonderful people who are involved with the show, but I feel really fortunate that she's going to do this, because I have a very hard time finding people who are willing and comfortable about playing lesbian or gay people on stage. Charles Koehler 27:37 I was just about to ask you about that 30 seconds that we have left at that? oh, well, here, here it is homophobia. There you go. Okay. Joan Lipkin 27:40 That's the answer to that question. Charles Koehler 27:41 Great. Joan Lipkin 27:41 The homophobia and the sexual misconduct law, I must say that as long as it is illegal in the state of Missouri to have homosexual activity, people are going to be frightened. So we got to overturn the laws and see what we can do. T Charles Koehler 28:02 The law has an incredibly subtle but powerful effect on all of our lives and what we are free to do, and what we feel that we are not empowered to do. And, Joan Lipkin 28:15 Oh, it's terrible. I mean, I feel frustrated as an artist, but, but I understand, I understand why people are afraid, and so I'm so excited when I have people who are willing to get into the material and are actually, you know, pleased and proud to be involved with a production like that, because, you know, playing a lesbian on stage really explicitly is a real challenge in a place like St. Louis. So that's the first two weekends in December, and Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I really hope people will come out, Jeff, I really do hope that people will come out. But I are the performance. I hope that they'll come out for our performances Exactly. And we're, let's see. We're at the St. Marcus Theater, Charles Koehler 28:56 Okay. And that's at 2102 Russell, and that's just two blocks east of Jefferson at McNair. And for more information, they can call, our listeners can call and to make reservations, which are strongly recommended, as seating is very limited, they need to call, 230-8219, that's 230-8219. Joan, thanks so much for being with us and for your courage and insight and the the steps that you've taken. Thanks for being with us. Joan Lipkin 29:28 Oh, Charles, it's my pleasure, and I must say that without an audience and people like you, there is no theater. So thank you. Charles Koehler 29:36 Great. Until next week. This is Charles Koehler for Lambda Reports. Tune us in again next week, same time, same station. Transcribed by https://otter.ai